W460 / 280GE petrol auto, Performance figures ?
Hello,
By accident I hijacked some gentlemans thread whilst enquiring about performance. I am so sorry about that.
So may I start again here and ask some performance questions regarding the G Wagon (W460) 280GE petrol auto.
Does anyone who owns one of these little trucks think that theirs is slow ? (I mean SLOOOOOOWWW!!!!)
Pull away in second obviously and takes beards to reach potential 50mph
Will pull 70mph (MAX) on motorway journey but still slows as it approachs inclines (sometimes down to 55) before moving off again upto its MAX 70.
It is the initial excelleration (well complete lack of it) that makes me curious.
Should it be and are they all slow off the mark. OR is mine experiencing some technical issues which are restricting her performance.
It has a badly bodged exhaust system. I am told she might want new plugs and air filter. (Will doing all this make her go again ?)
What's the verdict from other 280GE petrol auto owners ? Is yours of an acceptable speed/ excelleration ?
Neil.
The 280ge should easily make 80mph cruise for hours at a time. If your struggling to attain 70 and acceleration is painful slow then you have a problem. Its not a fast beast but neither is it that slow. It will slow down going up hill requiring kick down but its a heaving truck with only 150hp
Check the usual - plugs - timing - plug leads - distributor cap -valve clearances. Then the more difficult stuff - fuel injection - which is difficult these days as very few people have any idea of how to check Bosch mechanical injection without an expensive fishing expedition.
Injectors are quite cheap and not really worth cleaning. The warm up regulator can be tested an rebuilt as can the fuel distributor. Don't be tempted to use injection cleaner you put into the tank as it can cause crud to come loose and stick in the fuel distributor effectively wrecking it.
Simple things you can do on the fuel injection is change the filter but its probably not the main cause of low power.
If its starting and idling ok when cold I wouldn't suspect the warm up regulator.
I'd try the simple things first as the injection bit can be a bugger to test and in the end its down to fuel pressure and vacuum.
Be very careful who you let mess the the injection - you need someone who understands Bosch Jetronic injection - but when set up properly it works very well if somewhat thirsty.
Not sure a 280GE throttle linkages is completely like a diesel 300GD.. but making sure yoiu have full throttle when your foot is down is a simple starting point.. the 300GD has so much rubber in it that frequently they do not manage this. .. now then you want to complain about slow :-)
Mercedes quoted a 0 -100 km/h figure of 14.5 sec and a top speed of 95 mph. These figure most likely refer to a SWB with a 4-speed manual gearbox.
I own a 280GE auto SWB and find that it has acceptable performance.. it will rev if you gun it in lower gears... and have cruised at 80 and more in the past.... my car is absolutely standard...i have given it a full service, including plugs and leads,distributor cap and rotor arm.. new vacuum pipe from brake servo to injection system.. (only £7 from MB main dealer.).. also has valve clearances done and timing and mixture set... it has smooth gutsy acceleration... and i have no complaints except for its a little mechanical over 50mph... my exhaust is standard... and the air filter was in good nick... the car is very susceptible to poor performance if your vacuum pipes have leaks in them... check all of this including vacuum pipe to gearbox....and check the kickdown switch isn't covered with aftermarket mats mine was and wouldn't kick down till i trimmed it... you didnt say if yours was a LWB... which would be heavier than mine...and would give lesser performance....
whats the mileage?
are you sure you are in 2wd? if you are in 4wd you will struggle to go fast!
good luck.... keep looking.... never give up!!
A 240GD with 70hp has a top speed of 70 mph, in other words you are 80 hp short; I doubt that is caused by the exhaust system.
Fan in front of the radiator? Should there be a fan in front of the radiator on a 280 GEL?
Only been in a 280 once and it did not strike me as slow even with 4 up.
Good luck getting it sorted
The fan in front of he radiator is he air-conditioning fan for the condenser. It will only operate if the a/c is on or if the engine gets to a certain temperature.
Sounds as if your 280GE has some issues, but with a bit of time and care, they can all be sorted.
How much work can you cope with yourself?
Have you got the 280ge manual? Should be available to members.
Plugs, wires distib cap and valve clearances can all be done easily (a merc tool is best to adjust them) - to remove the plug wires use a tool to prevent wrecking the leads.
Have you checked the air filter condition?
I wouldn't have thought the exhaust is causing a huge problem - mine was in a terrible state untill I got it replaced with a side exit stainless steel one but the improvements were in idle and emissions settings.
You can make a rough check for vacuum leaks by getting it warm and let it idle then place your hand over the inlet pipe on the air filter. If it slows right down and stalls there is not a huge amount of leaking (the pipes to the air flap need to be sound and not leaking for this to work)
Timing requires a timing light but its easy to adjust - I run mine at 34 before @ 3000rpm I find that gives a bit more power and on regular fuel here it should be ok - not had any problems so far
You can take the inlet pipe off the air intake to the engine and check if the air flap moves smoothly without sticking - cleaning around it is a good idea. If its sticking then the engine will not get enough air - try revving it up and watching to see if it goes down smoothly.
Changing the injectors is not too hard and if they have never been done it might be worth while - to test them with the pump required is probably more expensive than new injectors and it should only take a couple of hours. The injection pipes have to come off both the injectors and fuel distributor but its not complicated.
If you want to go the hole hog and re-build the injection and vacuum system then remove the inlet manifold - take off the fuel distributor and warmup regulator and the all the pipes and clean them out.
Send or take preferably them to http://kmipetrolinjection.co.uk/Bosch%20K-Jetronic.htm to test and rebuild if needed. Ive used him and he knows what hes doing.
replace all the rubber pipes under the manifold.
That way you will have a fully functioning injection system - get the emissions checked on a machine.
This will be way cheaper than taking into a garage and open your wallet and say help yourself.
The 110 engine an Bosch K jetronic injection is pretty reliable and even if really out of whack will normally get you home. There is plenty of info out there on the injection and its not rocket science - just fuel pressure and vacuum. I did mine after years of poor running - and saved a fortune.
The only other part to go could be the ignition module or coil itself - a go on an engine analyzer would show that I guess.
good luck
150 bhp in the ge280 is a very conservative figure, the same engine delivered 185 in an w123 280e, I'm not sure the compression is different or whether its a cam change or even if its just an understated figure but these engines rev freely and never feel slow. The only real issue that should concern you is fuel consumption.
Yes the compression is dropped compared to the standard engine. An easy upgrade is to swap the car engine into a G. Plenty around and easy to re-ring them
Parts for the vacuum system (tubes, connectors, one-way valves, tees etc) are all very cheap. Just time is the main cost here.
the vacuum valves are not cheep i bought a set of 3
from my local mb dealer last year if i remember correct
about 300 gbp
Just bought a set for a 463 at between £2 and £7 each.
Maybe we are talking about different 'valves' ?
1 for the aulto gearbox 1 for the IP AND 1 FOR THE TOP OF ROCKER BOX
AS WHEN NEIL SAID HE HAS NO KICK DOWN IT WILL BE THESE
IF HE IS LUCKY IT WILL BE THE SWITCH ON THE FLOOR BEHIND
THE PEDDLE OR A LEAK IN THE PIPE WORK
V hi Neil
I will definately check coolant levels when I go collect her.
I am thinking I have got some major vacuum issues ??? She doesn't kick down !!! If I stand on the throttle she don't kick down.
will if I pull the shift back to third but not all on her own as she should !
Pulls away and changes up. but if you gun it it does not kick down. Just very very slowly vibrates and shakes as she attempts to build speed in the high gear !!!
Vacuum issues huh ?
Neil.
(And thank you for your kind words of encouragement. YES I believe I am doing the right thing. i will make her mint and she'll become a long term member of our family)
hey mate... i feel your pain... re the kick down issues... look under the accelerator pedal ...there is a small switch...that instigates kick down when depressed... if its covered in a mat or carpet it will not work...
next there is a vacuum pipe that runs from the engine bay just under the intake manifold that runs all the way down to the gearbox...and loops around there until it goes under a metal plate to protect it... that tells your gearbox how much throttle you are giving it...and gives you the gears.... if thats split or blocked...that will cause you issues... easy fix...
hope this addresses some of your issues.... i have spent the last 6 months getting to know my G with all her faults....
hope this helps....
The cooling system should operate under pressure when hot (up to 2 bar, or 30 PSI). It might just be that you need a new radiator cap. If properly pressurised, the coolant will not evaporate or boil, until 120C or higher. However, under normal driving, you would not expect the temperature to go beyond 95 C and if it is actually running much hotter than that, it could be a problem with a partially blocked radiator or faulty thermostat that is not opening properly.
See how it goes with a new radiator cap and new thermostat, but I would plan for a cooling system overhaul, with new or re-cored radiator, new water pump and new hoses. Sooner or later, all cars need this. It goes both with age and mileage.
The issue with the kickdown could be as simple as a fuse, or a faulty kickdown switch or wiring. Otherwise, the kickdown solenoid on the gearbox can be investigated.
PM sent
Neil
I can recommend this guy from P&R Autos Guildford Surrey. Contact Paul on 01483 234004
he worked on G wagons for MB for 35 years..... from when they were new... he should help you.. and he is very reasonably priced. what he doesn't know about them you can write on a stamp.
Good luck
John
I've used him twice....and another member on here.... he solved my poor running issues...and did my valve clearances (couldnt find anyone else who knew how to do them) with his Vast experience and knowledge of the G Wagon.... he has the special tools and knowledge required to fix them as well.....
Good luck
John
Hmmmmmm Dr. Spider1V's Prognosis;
A very sad case when a G owner has performance issues. Not getting it up ( a steep hill), no hard acceleration, and very slow perfomance (to 60) . Why not get a nice old 55 engine and drop one in? Get the best of all worlds , beter MPG, MPH, oodles of power - prob 0-60 in about 5-6 seconds and top speed well above the UK legal limit. Women begging you to have their babies and men looking on in envey.....and above all that lovley rumble of a V8?
Not up for that?
Take a look at:
Neil,
Good question. I am not the most technically gifted G driver, but with all the conversion on diesels, am assuming that it would be slightly easier, as there are no turbo's and complicated gubbin's like wot a diesel has. I remember a while back someone (Tony Baskill??) put a 5.6 into a SWB G - V nice!
Drop Sing G a PM and ask, he would know. Failing that maybe drop Gordon O (Evil Northern Rep ) a note, he does a number of conversions he could give you and idea or even Scouse G - they could give you a rough idea?
Sorry if I got you all excited... .
Spider1V
I believe all 280e engines had hardened valve seats, so a lead-substitute additive is not really necessary. However, they are tuned for high-octane fuel (RON 98), but a cheaper octane-booster alternative to additives may be just to use Shell Optimax or BP Ultimate etc, which are between 98 and 100 RON. You will get slightly more MPG with these fuels, which will offset their higher cost.
I DON'T KNOW MY SELF IF THE GEARBOX VACUUM VALVE IS THE SAME ON
YOURS AND MY G HOPE SOME ONE WILL TELL US
HOPE SO AS I HAVE ONE IN THE BACK OF MY G YOU CAN HAVE
I wouldn't be too fixated on the lack of kick down yet. IMHO your lack of performance sounds like either or both of the following:
First one and most likely. Vacuum leaks, split or even disconnected hoses. These also affect the operation of the gearbox. Trace them all and I'm sure you will find some of the rubber connectors perished. As a process of elimination you can tape them up with decent electrical tape.
The setup of the CIS injection. This is great system when correctly set-up and is actually a pretty simple system. Do some research online and as has been mentioned find someone who isn't in the plug and play generation.
Don't loose heart, you're correct about the motor trade unfortunately but with some knowledge these are pretty basic machines.
And I maybe wrong but the 280's in G Wagens were low compression so will run on 95?
Oh and tracing vacuum leaked.
With the engine running spray carb cleaner or maybe WD40 around. When the engine note changes you've found a leak.
I've just glanced through the thread, and unless I've missed it I don't see anything to indicate that you've completed a basic service yet.
No matter what the previous owner told you I would complete this before you do anything else.
Oil
Filters. Fuel, air, oil.
Plugs
Leads
Distributor cap.
You can get these online from opie oils or Euro car parts. Maybe £70 total.
Without this complete you've not got a bench mark to start from.
I'd also change the auto box fluid and filter as well.
The 280ge should easily make 80mph cruise for hours at a time. If your struggling to attain 70 and acceleration is painful slow then you have a problem. Its not a fast beast but neither is it that slow. It will slow down going up hill requiring kick down but its a heaving truck with only 150hp
Check the usual - plugs - timing - plug leads - distributor cap -valve clearances. Then the more difficult stuff - fuel injection - which is difficult these days as very few people have any idea of how to check Bosch mechanical injection without an expensive fishing expedition.
Injectors are quite cheap and not really worth cleaning. The warm up regulator can be tested an rebuilt as can the fuel distributor. Don't be tempted to use injection cleaner you put into the tank as it can cause crud to come loose and stick in the fuel distributor effectively wrecking it.
Simple things you can do on the fuel injection is change the filter but its probably not the main cause of low power.
If its starting and idling ok when cold I wouldn't suspect the warm up regulator.
I'd try the simple things first as the injection bit can be a bugger to test and in the end its down to fuel pressure and vacuum.
Be very careful who you let mess the the injection - you need someone who understands Bosch Jetronic injection - but when set up properly it works very well if somewhat thirsty.
Yeah I never thought she'd go like the wind but you are correct that she should offer better performance than she does at present !
The wagon has sadly been restored (I use that term loosely) by Roy Rogers !!!
Corners have been cut and mechanics completely neglected ! (half the elctrics are missing I think and at this stage wish not to name and shame the culprits) but a guy says he's gonna do things to help me with the parts so I am hoping he keeps his word.
My main thought is that the exhaust system is a bodge job !
The two manifolds join together into 1 single pipe which is taken to a central square box (This box has 2 ins and 2 outs) then from that central box a single pipe exits from the side (I like the side exit and will be keeping side exit if I need to do anything or renew the exhaust)
I suspect this as being the culprit for no power ?
This poor little truck keeps offering me tears of neglect and cries for help I'm struggling because I do not know mechanics and know not what to do for the best !
Neil.