3.6 AMG engine swap.

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bigblock
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I have been offered a 1996 C36 AMG (W202) with 87,000miles and a full MB service history for not a lot of money. The car is an insurance write off due to rear end damage.

Will the M104 engine swap easily with my 1993 M103 and autobox?

I am about to have my G completely ovehauled and part of that process was to have the existing engine reconditioned and a lot of the old ancilleries replaced. It has done 180,000miles and the whole car is starting to feel its age.

Since the engine was coming out anyway it might even be more economical just to replace it with the 3.6 assuming it is an easy swap.

Your advice would be most helpful.

As you can see I now have some red writing under my name so expect to be treated with the same deference and respect that you treat the other GWOA members (not) :D

peter perfect
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Those engines suffered from head problems, maybe it's worth doing the job now if there is no history of it being done in the past I would say it's an easy fit, sump might need swapping over, your gearbox should fit straight on.

mortinson
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Definitely yes!

It puts G-Wagen performance at a different level.

Shame that Mercedes just made a handful of those G 36 AMGs!

hus55
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

go for it, dont even hesitate...!

btw, whats the engine gonna cost you,if you dont mind me asking... :wink:

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Looks like the engine swap is a definite possibility then.

The complete C36 car is costing me £1200 plus delivery. Apparently it still drives although the back end is pretty well caved in and it has been in storeage outside for 18 months.

A friend has a contact in a salvage company that disposes of insurance write offs and I asked him to keep an eye out for any G wagens. I was a bit surprised when he phoned me about a C36 but he thought I might be interested in the engine.

The deal is I have to take the whole car but this way I get the wiring loom and any other engine related parts I might need. Does anyone know what other parts might be common between a '96 W202 and a '93 463 ?

prwales
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

thats a good price, I doubt you could get a big valve head on its own for much less than that, Brabus also did a 3.6 conversion though I think it was of the 103 engine, using again I think a crankshaft from a 3.5 litre diesel 8)

hus55
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

bigblock,what about the seats??

will you part with them :wink:

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

hus55 wrote:
bigblock,what about the seats??

will you part with them :wink:

Hi, I have'nt seen the car yet so I don't know what state the interior is in.

When it arrives I will post up some photos and whatever I don't need I will offer to the club members.

prwales
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

the Brabus conversion consisted of a gas flowed head, repacement camshaft, a replacement crankshaft with new forged pistons taking capacity to 3588cc. In 1991 this cost £6996 fitted. The amg engine is an absolute bargain, am I correct in asuming that you will use all engine ancilliaries as the fuel injection is a more advanced form than on the 103 engine?

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

prwales wrote:
the Brabus conversion consisted of a gas flowed head, repacement camshaft, a replacement crankshaft with new forged pistons taking capacity to 3588cc. In 1991 this cost £6996 fitted. The amg engine is an absolute bargain, am I correct in asuming that you will use all engine ancilliaries as the fuel injection is a more advanced form than on the 103 engine?

Yes you are right, assuming that the engine is as described then it would appear to be a bargain.

The AMG 3.6 M104.941 is quoted as producing 276bhp and 284ft/lbs which is quite an improvement over my M103.

It is my intention to try and use as many of the engine ancilliaries as possible not least because they will be a lot fresher than mine. Not sure how much re-wiring will be required.

My mechanic is still keen to go ahead with the turbo conversion we discussed earlier. He says an easy 400bhp but I am concerned about the knock on effect this would have on the drivetrain, brakes etc.

I use the G mostly for towing and offroading so I don't think I need all the extra horsepower and complications a turbo would bring when there is already 270+ reliable horse power available. Although I am tempted :D

Random picture of AMG 3.6 engine.

prwales
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

both options have advantages and short comings. The turbo requires a top end rebuild and will have customised fuel management, the upside will be masses of torque and the relative mechanical simplicity of the single cam engine and a single tubo, the downside could be the strain on the drivetrain.
The amg engine presents a different challenge of fitting and fettling an engine only ever fitted to a g-wagen in lhd. The principlal problem will be the wiring and wether its is compatible with the existing electrical systems that you need to maintain separate from the engines. Both are potentially a risk, but on balance I think I would go with the turbo. :idea:

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

prwales wrote:
both options have advantages and short comings. The turbo requires a top end rebuild and will have customised fuel management, the upside will be masses of torque and the relative mechanical simplicity of the single cam engine and a single tubo, the downside could be the strain on the drivetrain.
The amg engine presents a different challenge of fitting and fettling an engine only ever fitted to a g-wagen in lhd. The principlal problem will be the wiring and wether its is compatible with the existing electrical systems that you need to maintain separate from the engines. Both are potentially a risk, but on balance I think I would go with the turbo. :idea:

Hi, I probably did'nt make that last post very clear.

I am definetly going to go ahead with the engine swap to the 3.6.

My mechanic is suggesting that I carry on with the turbo conversion of this engine.

This is what I am currently pondering :?:

prwales
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

The 3.6 and a turbo would be a very couragous decision :wink:

tclynes
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

3.6 and a turbo, in the words of Ron Burgundy 'Sweet Lincoln's mullet'

Tom

nickchalkley
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Have just completed this conversion AMG 3.6 into my 3.0 LWB (finally due to finish this week) all running and driving just a few final bits to finish. Yes the good news is it does fit, the bad newsis that its not as straightforward as you (or as I ) thought a whole host of annoying bits and pieces that need adapting, but worthwhile once completed. The guy who did my conversion is just writing the final list of bits that you need to adapt and change and once he is complete I will be happy to share. Not sure how the turbo would fit, but having driven my 'new' g wagen I wouldn't bother they reckon when mine goes on the rolling road next week and has had its tweeks, they are going to squeeze out another 40 -50 bhp over the standard AMG 276bhp anyway, so we will see.

Nick

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Hi Nick.

I would be very interested in all the relevant information you have on the engine swap, it could certainly save me(or my mechanic) a lot of hassle.

Let me know what kind of figures you get on the rolling road. If you can get around 300bhp with a few modifications then as you say probably not worth the extra hassle of a turbo.

I feel much more confident about the whole conversion now. Thanks for posting.

Cheers, Doug.

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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

 Hi mate, hope you dont mind me joining in the conversation. I'm also interested in doing the same thing as I just got offered for a crashed C36 AMG. My main concern is the wiring, fuel system and transmission bolt on. As much its the same year as W463 G300, I'm concerned with the fuel system as I found there are difference in the fueling system from M103 and M104 (used in C/E 36 AMG). 3.0 M103 uses Continuous Injection System - Electronic while 3.6 M104 uses KE-jetronic, not sure here if the wiring from M103 will fit to M104 engine including any electrical related system... Any thoughts?? Also I found that G36 AMG uses 5-speed instead of 4-speed from G300

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Hi there, welcome to the conversation.

My engine conversion is currently on hold until I have completed an overhaul of the brakes and suspension as well as a much needed tidy up of the bodywork. However I can still answer a few of your questions.
 
Generaly speaking the actual fitting of the AMG 3.6 engine into the 463 G is pretty straight forward. The difficulty is, as you have already mentioned , the wiring, which should not be underestimated. To be able to run the KE Jetronic and the three ecu's on the C36 you need to make a hybrid loom out of the G and C class wiring looms. This is really a specialist job and requires the wiring diagram CD's for both vehicles, which are available on line. I have spoken to two people who have carried out this conversion and both of them required the services of an auto electrician to sort out the looms. 

There are two trains of thought on the gearbox. If you fit the five speed box from the C36 then you lose the crawler gear facility that the four speed box has. However you have the advantage of a  five speed box that is designed to work in conjunction with the C36 engine management system. I suppose it depends how much you need the crawler/braking gear. I think my preference would be for the five speed box. This box fits into the G with the alteration of a few pipes and brackets.

If you look on the GWOA home page MichaelG36 has started a blog about his conversion of a 460 to take a 3.6, although he has not posted for a while. I suspect he has run into wiring problems. I was quoted £1200 to make up a new loom for the 3.6 which at the time I thought expensive, but considering that this is the most crucial part of the conversion it is probably worth it.

Hope this helps.

Spider1V
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

I would never contemplate such a venture (am not technically minded enough!) The 3.6 AMG engine is (as been pointed out) a very good engine and with it pushing 276BHP as standard and after the tweaks will push it over the 300 barrier. I am driving a big 5ltr that has 299BHP and that is fun enough! I just wanted to know what kind of fuel consumption you will expect?

Best of luck and look forward to seeing the pictures and hearing your report

Spider1V

mgrays
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

I would be half tempted to just go with a custom modern aftermarket ECU or even a cheap and cheerful Megasquirt. These when set up right can be customised to your engine to maximise output and economy. Issue is that it takes a skilled and patient person to do this, plus doing low temp setup is hard as it turns up when they are not around .. but well worth results in drivability, power and economy. My biggest gains were at areas other than max power... so you can drive around at 1,000 rpm on a petrol easily. I learnt a lot fitting mine and was going to go to the next stage.. 240hp/1.8litre was easy (not a G).. 330-350 litre/2.3 litre was the next stage but cost/benefit was not very good! The existing systems from MB are out of date, slow, complex and you are going to end up with a hybrid mess anyway.

A 276 hp 3.6 litre is never going to become a 320-330 hp engine with a few tweaks unless it is very special. Stop listening to the "fit an air filter and gain 30hp" brigade! 100 bhp/litre is a special number that few natural aspirated (non turbo/super) engines achieve without losing drivability (Honda S2000, smaller BMW M cars, Ferraris etc). If you turbo.. then you really want to have that aftermarket ECU (and it is nicer than a piggy back ECU for boost times).. then you can look to 120-130 bhp/litre with an intercooler so that 400 hp from 3 litres becomes doable. Trouble would be torque on the turbo would be 400 ftlbs or so at least and torque is what kills drive train.

Guess it depends what you want out of car. TBH from a money point of view a G500 would be cheapest. Do not know how bad your rust on the body is.. but once started it will always come back until you enclose your car port and put a dehumidifier in. A modified car is never worth half the money spent on it. I DIY it all so I get what I want with less cash but paying for and falling out with your mechanic/bodyshop etc is not worth the hassle unless very bored and cash rich! Oh and decent mechanics up to this in Scotland are rare.. not sure I know anyone who really could do it flawlessly (unless given a winter to optomise.. cold starts are a b*gger as you only get one a day).

Here are a few aftermaket ECUs.. as I was going to update my Link ECU on my summer car..

Motec – http://www.motec.com the best but at a price http://www.performance5.co.uk/supercharger.html has them for $3,400 including injectors and knock but no coil
Autronic http://www.turbofast.com.au/autronic/autronic.html (designed by the original Motec engineer)
Haltech http://www.haltech.com http://www.hitman.hm/haltech.htm $1600 but no ignition coils
FJO http://www.fjoinc.com/
$2261 for basic 4 cyl kit with coils, lots of I/O ports, Canada only really but amazing I/O including 4 PWM outputs (tacho already there) 15 digital out, 8 digital in, 2 thermocouples, 5 analogue in, etc… unknown software (Win 98) but full time data logging.
TEC –II http://www.vishnuperformance.com/ Shiv has custom installation kit at $2475
TEC-III TEC-3 complete, $2100.00 Shipping the week of Feb 8th 2002 http://www.electromotive-inc.com/
Link has the support/programming and it is plug and play pre’96 cars only. $1000
Perfect Power http://www.perfectpower.com/ South African lot – also do timing boxes and piggy backs
SDS http://www.sdsefi.com/ $1134 includes coil ignition pack but basic control
Autocar / Lumenition, England. www.lumenition.com
DTA Race Electronics, England. www.dtafast.co.uk
EFI Technology / Ole Buhl Racing, England. http://www.efi-technology.com/ webpage dead
Emerald Camshafts, England http://members.aol.com/emeraldm3d
General Engine Management Systems, England. www.gems.co.uk
MBE Systems, England. http://www.mbesystems.com/
Pectel Control Systems, England http://www.pectel.co.uk/
Racetech Developments, England. E-Mail: JONESRTD@aol.com
Webcon UK. Alpha Group, England. http://www.webcon.co.uk/
Wolf http://www.wolfems.com.au/wolf_home_page.html
http://www.200sx.org/ecudata.html a general comparision
www.adfxracing.com HKS Super AFR with built in CPU for fuel enrichment at $325.00
http://www.aempower.com/index_2.htm

bigblock
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

Interesting post Mr mgrays. 

I use AVA Turbos in Glasgow for all of my engine work and they are recommending a similar setup to you. They would prefer not to fit the 3.6 engine with the associated wiring difficulties. Instead they propose to rebuild my M103 and fit a twin turbo kit along with a custom injection system and ecu. This would produce around 280 to 300bhp which is probably as far as I would want to go on the existing transmission. 

I like the idea of fitting the AMG 3.6 but maybe the turbo route is the easier and more reliable option.

AVA recently designed and fitted an injection system to replace the twin Holley 650's on my bigblock Ford and I am very happy with the results. I asked them to keep the intake system looking as period as possible which I think they have achieved. See below.

mgrays
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

That's a pretty bit of Shelby work... guess that does not live under the car port!

Used AVA to sign off my turbo conversion on the 1.8 on their rolling road (came down from Aberdeen as they were about the only lot who I found trustworthy). Bit old school and did not really get very into Air/Fuel ratios which I was surprised at later... they just strapped it down and did a full power run while listening for Knock which is the first thing you do.. also no decent fan to keep it cool. So about 2 hours messing about but they did what was requested of them at a basic level i.e. make sure the thing was safe and was not going to lunch itself (which it promptly did due to a weak conrod which was just life.. and lesson not lift off the throttle at 110mph.. just ease it back smoothly).

Anyway sure they could do it .. guess it depends who ECU you use and if the Auto box needs to talk to the ECU. The older engine is probably simpler/more known to them but really an engine is an engine... it is then about safety factors .. i.e lots of the 3 litre petrols have been turbo'ed without issue  as MB over built them to start with whereas the same engine taken out to 3.6 litres and tweaked is an unknown factor.. and is likely to have less of a safety factor. Turbo'ing is part luck, part judgement and part skill... just be aware that there will be a failure rate however good the workman... and hope you are right in the middle of the bell curve (statistics).

1. try and find out what they upgraded.. forged con-rod and pressure squeezed piston (not just cast) plus a steel not cast crank would be real nice to have
2. try and find out if someone race the engine and what power they got... plus what they had to replace
3. Find out what the compression ratio is.. likely the AMG is higher.. which makes it not so good for turbo'ing.. if you have a good programmer and electronic boost control it is doable (I am on 9.5:1 which when I did it 10 years ago had everyone muttering about needing new pistons to lower the compression ratio).

I guess Bob Henderson is still fiddling at Minnow Fish down at Lochgilphead (where I come from).. he was one of the first turbocharging folk in this country but is again old school... sure he had done a 3 litre Merc before now.

prwales
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Re: 3.6 AMG engine swap.

twin turbo technics ce300 (103 engine) on e-bay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-300CE-Coupe-Twin-Turbo-Technics-/32071447...