tom sheppard
Does anyone know why land rover anf off roader GURU Tom Sheppard switched to a G wagen?
was it because he realised land rovers are not as good as the G?
hahahahahahahahaha
Pretty sure he said it was due to reliability issues. It is mentioned in one of his books - perhaps the VDEG
Ok max can we you find out where exactly?
Tom shepard is known for his desert travels, not off roading as such, if your friend doesn't know tom and his books what relavence will it have, if he does know him and his books then your questions have been answerd already!, anyway next time you see him ask him what's it like driving a TaTa.
As far as I know, He has couple of books. last one is with a 461.Correct?
I will buy that last book. Has anyone read it ?
It is a good point to seperate competition off roading and expedition off roading. Me agrees.
I recently read 'Quiet for a Tuesday', where he describes in some detail his reasons for switching from a Defender TD5 to a 461 G. One of the reasons was the unpredictable fuel consumption of the defender when driving off-road. He also likes the G's factory-fitted diff-locks and talks a lot about its capability/reliability/comfort.
first of all what's the landrover guy saying, " landrovers are the best" and everything else is shite. Why do landrovers leave the factory with corrosion, why don't they offer diff locks on the defender seris? When toyota, nissan and g wagens do, and why is it landrover had 80% of the Australian Market , only to have 2% now ?
I guess you also need to point out Tom’s observations about the pathetic MB after sales service and the issues he has with his G.
Pretty pointless “discussionâ€Â
Mines bigger than yours,
Am I bovered
springs to mind :roll: :roll:
Thanks a lot everyone. I have enough info now. I will order the book as well.
I guess you also need to point out Tom’s observations about the pathetic MB after sales service and the issues he has with his G.
Pretty pointless “discussionâ€Â
Mines bigger than yours,
Am I bovered
springs to mind :roll: :roll:
Why is it pointless ? MB G wagen is a much much better vehicle than LR's.
And LR is the one with "BEST 4X4 so far" moto. MB is not even bothered with advertising. There are lots of naive and misquided people out there taken for a ride.
Some UK MB dealers are very good with G wagens some are not. This would harly be the case in Germany though.
Anyway most countries are buying G's for there military now. As Ian said it above, why are they losing so much market share ? Because their moto is FAKE thats why
its not a like with like comparison, LR's are much cheaper to buy new and offer scope for modification to suit a variety of different uses. LR's (modified) dominate the off road scene, a question of fact, they are also very well covered by specialists, their own magazines and clubs. The issue of the TD5 engine and its electrics is a frequent one amongst the green oval brigade and I believe the consensus is that if you want reliability go for a 200/300tdi
Russ280 wrote:I guess you also need to point out Tom’s observations about the pathetic MB after sales service and the issues he has with his G.
Pretty pointless “discussionâ€Â
Mines bigger than yours,
Am I bovered
springs to mind :roll: :roll:
Why is it pointless ? MB G wagen is a much much better vehicle than LR's.
And LR is the one with "BEST 4X4 so far" moto. MB is not even bothered with advertising. There are lots of naive and misquided people out there taken for a ride.
Some UK MB dealers are very good with G wagens some are not. This would harly be the case in Germany though.
Anyway most countries are buying G's for there military now. As Ian said it above, why are they losing so much market share ? Because their moto is FAKE thats why
thing is shakir, no one can comment on who is best, until they have had there own experience with most marques, having owned LR's RR's, Nissan, Mitsubishi, G and a fourtrak, non for more that 50K of use, even I can only say horses for courses, but it bugs me when LR's boys discrimenate every thing but LR's
its not a like with like comparison, LR's are much cheaper to buy new and offer scope for modification to suit a variety of different uses. LR's (modified) dominate the off road scene, a question of fact, they are also very well covered by specialists, their own magazines and clubs. The issue of the TD5 engine and its electrics is a frequent one amongst the green oval brigade and I believe the consensus is that if you want reliability go for a 200/300tdi
Dominate only because of the % of LR's competiting on these shores. Now if you were to stick a std LR against a std G its a different thing all together, take a look at some of the european events where the amount of Gs are higher and you see G in the top 3. Of course the G has an advantage Stick ARB on a LR and then the advantage is equal, but give it hard terrain like rock and the LR is bound to break a shaft. However when it comes to modifing then you cant compare like for like either.
I sometimes go to the local GLASS (Green Laning Association) meets (down the pub) and OMG the initial ribbing I get from all the LR guys! :?
'oh you can do this with a Landie'
or
'You can have that fitted to a landy'
Or
'I can go up this road with a Landy'
and, my all time favourite
'Oh why did you get a G Waggon, you could have spent less on a landy and trigged it up!'
etc etc....
(and so the long evening starts....... :roll: )
My answer is very simple and to the point.... and those who know me and have met me, will understand my response, to their constant quips, digs and general comment's that are negative towards my G. I feel that it is measured, strong and conveys all I would like to get across in a simple, yet effective manner.
'Fu*k off you sheep, Its my choice what I want to drive!'
They tend not to have a go anymore and treat me with respect, as I don't directly 'diss' their choice of vehicle.....
Spider1V - Just call me the diplomat.....
Ian said "Dominate only because of the % of LR's competiting on these shores. Now if you were to stick a std LR against a std G its a different thing all together, take a look at some of the european events where the amount of Gs are higher and you see G in the top 3. Of course the G has an advantage Stick ARB on a LR and then the advantage is equal, but give it hard terrain like rock and the LR is bound to break a shaft. However when it comes to modifing then you cant compare like for like either."
But a new G-wagen swb is 3 x the price of the most basic LR defender! The comparison is far from clear cut when you compare a RR with a G-wagen to which in price terms the G is closer.
There is a further issue of maintanance. If I took a disco or defender to my local garage they'd know what they were dealing with. When I took my old 230 there it was the first one they'd worked on. LR's might brake easier but I reckons they get fixed easier too!
There is a further issue of maintanance. If I took a disco or defender to my local garage they'd know what they were dealing with. When I took my old 230 there it was the first one they'd worked on. LR's might brake easier but I reckons they get fixed easier too!
That's true! Once my old 460's vacuum seal was broken and the engine wouldn't stop... broought it to a local garage and they had no idea what to do! Finally, I had to bring it to a dealership to fix it.
The uk is unique when of comes to mb dealers and g wagens, it sucks, also not sure if we are talking about new like for like either. Shakir lives in turkey so he will have to give a local comparison, it's horses for courses and like russ says it pointless to a degree. However let's compare a 1989 g wagen against an equal year lr90 with the same milage and condition, take them off road and use them for a year and see what one is more cost effective. Hence why you are all in the gwoa and drive one, isn't it ? . The 463 is nearly 20 years old and been modified to todays standards and still in a factory that's is more manual than mechanical so as for cost new then yes very expensive, compare a new swb 90 with a swb g wagen in terms of livi g with it as a day to day vehicle and build quality! Don't think I could live with the landy as an every day car
That's true! Once my old 460's vacuum seal was broken and the engine wouldn't stop... broought it to a local garage and they had no idea what to do! Finally, I had to bring it to a dealership to fix it.
The engines are straight out of the sedans... so clearly your local garage wouldn't be able to fix a merc sedan then either... :|
There is a further issue of maintanance. If I took a disco or defender to my local garage they'd know what they were dealing with. When I took my old 230 there it was the first one they'd worked on. LR's might brake easier but I reckons they get fixed easier too!
And how is it any different to working on any other 4x4, it's a myth that g wagens are any harder than a landrover, the basics are the same, never had any trouble with my local garages, fault finding maybe a different matter, because of volume of landrovers and there faults are common, but the Internet is a wonderful thing, any decent garage can look up stuff, the engine are commonly used is saloon cars, and what do you here about diffs, gearboxes, or transfer case issues on g, servicing is no different to any other 4x4 so change your garage I say!
Grecian wrote:There is a further issue of maintanance. If I took a disco or defender to my local garage they'd know what they were dealing with. When I took my old 230 there it was the first one they'd worked on. LR's might brake easier but I reckons they get fixed easier too!
That's true! Once my old 460's vacuum seal was broken and the engine wouldn't stop... broought it to a local garage and they had no idea what to do! Finally, I had to bring it to a dealership to fix it.
Tossers is the word I'm looking for these garages, it's a mercedes engine, basic engine, like many others of circa 79-89 !remember landrover garages work on landrovers , day in day out, dealer or independent, they get to know faults, a garage that does all sorts is a jack of all, master of none, well not all. So your arguments are flawed when it comes to these statements
lphong wrote:
That's true! Once my old 460's vacuum seal was broken and the engine wouldn't stop... broought it to a local garage and they had no idea what to do! Finally, I had to bring it to a dealership to fix it.
The engines are straight out of the sedans... so clearly your local garage wouldn't be able to fix a merc sedan then either... :|
Also applies to PP's comments above...
To be fair, my guys figured most of it out in the end, it just wasn't as straight forward a process as when I take my 3-series there. I guess they probably wouldn't be that familiar with Merc sedans of a similar age. The point is they see LR's day in day out (speaks volumes!) so they know what they're looking for before they start.
lphong wrote:
That's true! Once my old 460's vacuum seal was broken and the engine wouldn't stop... broought it to a local garage and they had no idea what to do! Finally, I had to bring it to a dealership to fix it.
The engines are straight out of the sedans... so clearly your local garage wouldn't be able to fix a merc sedan then either... :|
Hmmm, i don't think they would be able to fix that either! That mechanic is very good at all kinds of landy tho!
Arrr, this topic has reminded me that I used to always feel sick when travelling in the defenders! And then realised how comfortable and nice the G is after being given a lift in one of them! ...but very sadly, I am sure that the owner of that G is not a member of this forum :(
If there had not been the original RR, 3.5, V8, coil sprung there would be no g-wagen, shogun, landcruiser etc every manufacturer copies the other. Defenders are crude uncomfortable draughty and have fragile gearboxes but a lot of the things that come in the 463 I could happily do without. What I would like is a completely basic g-wagen, manual, no electric roofs or windows, rubber mats, mbtex seats, no air con, no armrests, no front diff lock, the sort of basic no frills stuff the military demands, a bit like a 461 but not at a 461's silly price. If Merc can't make them at a fair price how come Ssangyong could?
If there had not been the original RR, 3.5, V8, coil sprung there would be no g-wagen...
And here I thought the predecessor to the G-Wagen and Mercedes off-road heritage was the Mercedes G-3 Command Car from the 1930s...
If Merc can't make them at a fair price how come Ssangyong could?
Hand-made limited production in Europe always cost more than robot produced mass production in Asia....
The current g-wagen's Nazi heritage is very dubious, nor is it something that I would want to even hint at. The car is not even a proper mercedes, its a Puch!
Designed and built in Austria by Puch.
LandCruisers, Nissan Patrols were both around long before the RR. The G, a proper Merc by the way, would likely have been here as well, regardless of the RR.
Designed and built in partnership with Puch - the project was initiated by Mercedes. Puch just had the expertise to carry it out.
Actually, I didn't know Steyr makes cars as well as firearms until I really got into the G.
Speaking of the bad gear box on defenders... once I was travelling in a defender on the M4, then all in a sudden the transmission was completely doomed. He couldn't select any gears at all!
Another occassion happened to my friend's mother... she was exiting an duel carriageway and the gear stick stuck in 3rd, couldn't change it by any chance.Luckily it was quite late at night, no other cars were around. So she just drove straight home without stopping or changing gears...
well overall we have verified
G wagens are;
more expensive
better build
stronger
well equipped
last longer
Older G wagens are very easy to fix. As said before engines are straight forward and running gear is not complicated either.Any competent mechanic should fix one easily.
In the past, I helped my mechanic many times by downloading the necessary instructions and completing the jobs without problems.
You will be amazed how good Mercedes mechanics are there in this side of the world.
Almost everything (parts) is available from MB dealers
Well it seems that the old adage stays true in that you get what you pay for...
better build + stronger + better designed + more durable = more money
Pretty simple really.
The current g-wagen's Nazi heritage is very dubious, nor is it something that I would want to even hint at. The car is not even a proper mercedes, its a Puch!
Designed and built in Austria by Puch.
A Mercedes E300 4matic, is that a mercedes ?, drivetrain designed and built in the factory at graz also !m and assembled there to, mercedes 4x4 cars go back to the G4 and 5 in the 1930/40s, one of them being 4 wheel steer, are you honestly saying the RR started the coil spring thing, do me a favour :roll:. The down hill decent first seen in the Freelander, designed and made by styer, the only decent thing on those awful bloody things.
If there had not been the original RR, 3.5, V8, coil sprung there would be no g-wagen, shogun, landcruiser etc every manufacturer copies the other. Defenders are crude uncomfortable draughty and have fragile gearboxes but a lot of the things that come in the 463 I could happily do without. What I would like is a completely basic g-wagen, manual, no electric roofs or windows, rubber mats, mbtex seats, no air con, no armrests, no front diff lock, the sort of basic no frills stuff the military demands, a bit like a 461 but not at a 461's silly price. If Merc can't make them at a fair price how come Ssangyong could?
have you owned a ssangyong ? I have !, cheap crap, I had a musso 3.2 petrol. great in a straight line, but hit a cats eye and hold on for dear life, go over 80 and the doors start to shake like hell. plastic scratches so easily, bits fall of all over the place, and off road, :lol: please my sides are splitting. Lose money quicker than you can shake a stick at, compare a ssangyoung to a G, now you are joking.
I have owned:
2 x nissan patrols
3 x landrovers
2 x range rovers
1 x mitsubishi
1 x fourtrak
1 x Toyota Prada
5 x g wagens
1 x suzuki
1 x ssangyoung musso
so I can say what's good and what isnt with all of them, and understand why G wagens are expensive ! you get what you pay for! currenty have a patrol, which serves me well until it rots around me, which it will !
Hmmmm here is the G3A - the predecessor to the G4 (the one Hitler, Franco and all the other Nazi hierarchy went round in). Interesting to note that this came out long before the Willis Jeep and of course the Land Rover. Personally if my Lotto Numbers come up - this is the baby I am getting!
By the Way - PP you may need to change your Vehicle type in your avatar....... :twisted: :wink:
Even before Daimler and Benz had merged, Daimler had worked on the 4x4 idea since 1903.
It is a fact .Germans invented the Gelandawagen idea long before anyone else.That includes LR, Subaru,Willys etc.Just because they dont advertise as well as LR it does not mean they dont exist.
MB is too humble, should not be.
Hmmmm here is the G3A - the predecessor to the G4 (the one Hitler, Franco and all the other Nazi hierarchy went round in). Interesting to note that this came out long before the Willis Jeep and of course the Land Rover. Personally if my Lotto Numbers come up - this is the baby I am getting!
By the Way - PP you may need to change your Vehicle type in your avatar....... :twisted: :wink:
The 560 is still in my head :cry:
Hmmmm here is the G3A - the predecessor to the G4 (the one Hitler, Franco and all the other Nazi hierarchy went round in). Interesting to note that this came out long before the Willis Jeep and of course the Land Rover. Personally if my Lotto Numbers come up - this is the baby I am getting!
By the Way - PP you may need to change your Vehicle type in your avatar....... :twisted: :wink:
Check out the G4 here http://www.gizmag.com/go/3663/ having undergone a full restoration.
8)
Spider1V wrote:Hmmmm here is the G3A - the predecessor to the G4 (the one Hitler, Franco and all the other Nazi hierarchy went round in). Interesting to note that this came out long before the Willis Jeep and of course the Land Rover. Personally if my Lotto Numbers come up - this is the baby I am getting!
By the Way - PP you may need to change your Vehicle type in your avatar....... :twisted: :wink:
Check out the G4 here http://www.gizmag.com/go/3663/ having undergone a full restoration.
8)
That's amazing, I never knew they existed. Are they 6x6? I guess what Willis/LR did was put the 4WD idea into a more usable and mass-production friendly form then?
The G3/4 sank as soon as it went off road.. something like 3t on 6 skinny tyres. May have had the techie bits .. but ground pressure needs to be right! Now Mr Citreon and his half tracks... that was impressive for the time.
Well for a pointless discussion it’s certainly created a lot of discussion.
Of course it’s all based on opinions ranging from:
1. Well informed based on actual experience
2. Informed based on reading articles, internet (obviously fact then) or books (slightly better, through to
3. Blinkered bias based on no apparent experience or first had knowledge.
Exactly what certain LR people exhibit and a pretty un appealing characteristic of some G Wagen owners.
Not many facts in evidence.
OK so Tom Sheppard likes his G Wagen. I can certainly see how it’s Germanic qualities would appeal to his OCD type personality (those who have read his books should get what I mean, those that haven’t I’m certainly not being derogatory)
I doubt he would claim to be an all knowing expert on all 4X4’s though. I don’t believe that’s what it’s all about for him and I get the impression that he’s far too modest anyway.
He certainly doesn’t harp on about how all LR’s are junk and how supreme the G is.
In reality most opinions favour Toyota’s for overland travel. Something I would agree with if my life depended on it.
For me I like my G, it suits our needs at the moment but equally I’m a self confessed petrolhead so I can see qualities in plenty of other things with engines and wheels. Particularly those with some character (OK a Defender has a little too much of that) or some heritage.
I’ve occasionally come across LR types who want to enter in to a slanging match about who’s is best/ bigger. But then I avoid provoking such a reaction, I would certainly NEVER bother attempting to convert them.
Why should I? How do I know I’m right and they’re wrong? Their LR, Toyota or whatever suits them and if they are happy good luck to them.
I have 1st hand knowledge of most LR products and for example the Discovery 3 is extremely well built, comfortable, refined, economical and versatile, also very cheap at the moment. Proper 7 seater compared to the archaic and dangerous G Wagen setup with it’s inward facing rear seats. LR dealers (pre. Tata) make MB look like amateurish spiv’s. So who’s right?
(BTW Spyker could claim to have beaten MB) but who cares really?
Anyway as I said this is an utterly utterly pointless discussion. And that is FACT :wink:
Entertaining though
The G3/4 sank as soon as it went off road.. something like 3t on 6 skinny tyres. May have had the techie bits .. but ground pressure needs to be right! Now Mr Citreon and his half tracks... that was impressive for the time.
This was the case with the G4, there is somewhere on the Internet a picture of H with a bemused face looking at his G4 stuck in the mud!, However the picture posted was in fact before that and was the G3a Kommander Car variant (17 ordered 16 only ever made), it basically had 10 wheels in a 2/4/4 config (2 at the front, then 4 then 4 at the back). There is one available down in Belgium (and its MINE!)
Built in 1933 this was a far more useful vehicle than the G3/G4's as you could do some off roading with it! - Never took on because it was felt that the 10 wheels look 'uncool' and the G 4 was launched.
Pretty much agree with Russ. I don't care what 4x4 others drive, as long as its not mine. :lol:
But these debates are fun, and sometimes you have to get of the fence and admit the G is the best :wink: :lol:
Only fault with the G is Mercedes never had the balls to build it themselves. It should have had a proper production line, next to the old T1 commercial, chucked out by the 1000 and then it could have given the Land Cruiser some proper competition.
The G3/4 sank as soon as it went off road.. something like 3t on 6 skinny tyres. May have had the techie bits .. but ground pressure needs to be right! Now Mr Citreon and his half tracks... that was impressive for the time.
Can anyone verify this please ?
"Nevertheless, the car was simply too heavy for its intended task as a cross-country vehicle." Quote from "M-B Parade & Staff Cars of the Third Reich" by Blaine Taylor 1999 p 85. There is a photo, however, of a G4 driving on snow using six chains over the tyres.
Yes
Mr Citroen built an excellent half track?
entered in some pretty extreme point-to-points it was.
ie Paris to Bejing type
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I really need a written proof ,evidence of some kind.There is one really annoying LR guy down here. This will be the last nail in his coffin.(@~+**X)
Yes I am really annoyed.