starter motor - starter ring
I have a problem with the above on my GES 300 92.
18 months ago the starter began to miss.
It got worse and so took it to my garage (a good guy) who upon taking the starter out noticed the starter ring was damaged and had to be changed.
Apparently it is extremely rare for a ring to ever need changing.
Got new starter motor and ring fitted all OK Nov 03. Ring from Mercedes, new starter from a auto electrical company I know and who supply batteries and alternators etc and refurbish alternators and generators and the like. It wasn't a Merc part but the make was recommended by them.
Couple of months ago starter started missing again so took it in to have starter motor checked over. All OK though the auto electricians (personal friends who I trust) said nothing wrong though they made a minor adjustment for forms sake that probably wasn't necessary but the problem didn't go away.
My mechanic and the auto electricians shop know and respect each other, been around a long time in the locale.
Last week I took the car back to the electricians and they said it must be the ring as the motor starts first time everytime unless the ring rests in a particular place. All functions of the starter are correct. Possibly a soft tooth on the ring.
Back at the mechanic's today he took the motor out and sees that the ring is damaged again. The starter motor looks OK.
Two starter rings damaged in the life of a car is abnormal and with two different starter motors, odder still.
Wracking the mechanics brain cells really provided no further suggestions as to what it might be, he's at a loss even after seeking further advice from other guys in the trade in the area.
The car's an auto so the ring is bolted solidly onto the whatever it's bolted to (flywheel?) and is not subject to play through the transmission. (I haven't described this well as I don't have the terminology)
The auto electrician I've known for over 20 years and he'd tell me if he'd supplied a wrong'un whether it cost him or not (it wouldn't). The mechanic has looked after both my earlier and this G-Wagen for the past 5 years after being recommended by my Merc dealer who had looked after the first G for the initial 9 years that I owned it (they couldn't get decent mechanics!!).
I'm not looking to give them hell, they know that, I just want things fixed. Between us we just can't find a solution that will also can guarantee the problem will have been solved and will not return.
Can anyone make any suggestions please??
I'm a member of the G-Wagen Association and will telephone them as well but am spreading my net wide.
Hope someone has a suggestion.
David
David,
One possibility is this one(but you've probably already checked this...):
Maybe, just maybe the engine got changed once in the G-wagen's life to one out of another vehicle(not g-wagen), or even the starter, which might mean slightly different teeth between starter and ring-gear resulting in them literally eating each other and eventually resulting in the occasional bind - worth to see that they are 100% meshing correctly...
Some foreign material between the teeth may also cause this and rarely could cause the flexplate to bend causing one area on the ring-gear to bind on the starter gear...
Hope this helps
Good luck!
It is not an uncommon prctice for mechanics to turn a ring gear rather than replace it.
Because an engine stops in a number of set positions due to pistomn compression, I think 2 points on a four cylinder and three on a six cylinder 4 on an eight cylinder etc, the starter dog strikes in a number of repetative places, by moving the ring round, ie removing it revolving it 90 deg and refitting it, the starter ring should strike in a different place, your mechanic may have been unlucky on this occasion.
Bill Moss
I don't think this is the case here as the mechanic was extremely surprised to have to change a starter ring at all and showed me the damage on the old one. Of course I don't know for sure whether that was the original ring but there are limits even to my scepticism, I like and trust the fellow.
Thank you for the suggestion.
I was not suggesting your mechanic was untrustworthy, simply pointing out a pratice often used,
It was very rude of me not to finish this thread but it was Christmas and I was pleased to get it sorted before going abroad in the New Year for 6 weeks. When back I clean forgot.
After help from a GWOA member over the telephone I spent a lot of time on the telephone with Andy of Western Mercedes Benz, Coldstream, Berwickshire.
They didn’t recognize the part number of the starter motor and after much searching we discovered that somewhere in the car’s history, two owners before me buying it from Caversham Motors, the starter motor was changed for the wrong model. A close fit but not correct.
Upshot – two gnarled starter rings, the latest of which hangs on my garage wall and a correct model starter and many hundreds of pounds later my G is beautiful and reliable again.
I have nothing but praise for the fellows at Western who helped me out and rushed the new one to the other end of the country on the eve of Christmas Eve though it was expensive.
The course of true love never runs smoothly.
Good to hear its fixed but I am surprised that your auto electrician did not cross reference the model number of the stater to the one you had against the one that should show in his Lucas book. In all fairness any MB garage would have told you that the part number you gave did not match to your vehicle. It would have been cheaper to get your auto electrician to exchange your wrong one with a correct one.
So what was the problem, a wrong number of teeth on the pinion?
Most catalogues list 2 models, 9 and 10 teeth, and 1.5kW and 2.2kW.
I'm about to replace the starter ring gear (eaten away in 2 positions) but want to make sure I have the right starter. The one that came out is a 9-tooth one..now I'm cross-referencing the Bosch & MB numbers. If anyone out there knows anything about the correct starter for the 300GE (1991) please let me know. There were a number of fitments apparently, depending on year.
Thanks.
Hi According to My EPC the current part number for the kit ..starter gearing. gear set. and pinion is A004 151 66 01.....when your G was mnfctrd in 1991 the starter part number was A003 151 00 01 matched to parts A000 151 03 30 ...A000 151 90 13 and A000 150 11 31 respectively.....with a starter motor pinion one tooth out to the starter ring gradual windup would throw the pinion off at some point before a full revolution or jam...with the ring having a 1 tooth mismatch the tooth profile would be different giving greater or lesser interface tolerance.......mating pinion to ring would seem to be the answer to your problem.......
Thanks fixwin, your time on the EPC is appreciated.
The advice of the electricians was to install it and inspect it in a few months to see whether there was any where. The starter pinion part number from Bosch checked out with the old one installed, so I'm hoping that wasn't the problem.
Now to price a starter ring gear from MB...it's like the G knows when I haven't spent anything substantial on it in a few months, something always comes up!
Will try to post all the Bosch numbers here too for ref, and pics once the job is done.
- update -
As per the EPC:
Starter A004 151 6601
Gear set: A000 151 0330
Gearing: A000 150 0131
The starter's Bosch no. 000 0131 4035 (off the casing) which translates to Cargo no. (a supplier) CS268, 331 or 794.
The flywheel/ring gear is part A1030300512 (£170+vat)
8 screws that bolt it to the crank are A1020320071 (few pence)
2 washers (not needed unless crushed apparently) A1110320176 (£24+)
Some photos attached of the ring gear damage (2 locations) and starter old/new pinions. We've also arrived at the diagnosis that the bad idle behaviour might be the crank position sensor losing the reading on the worn ring gear.
Off to a tranny specialist next to sort it out, plus the slight transmission fluid leak. Looks like the engine has seen work in that area before, as the hub/rear crankcase has a black sealant in evidence.
Hi Part Numbers only may not resolve your problem ...before you instal the new ring gear make sure that the starter teeth profile mates to the ring teeth profile through a complete rotation.... many years ago I was told that if the number of teeth on the starter divided equally into the number of teeth on the starter ring it was right..but since both are accessable on the bench it is easy to make sure that half way round the rotation the teeth are not beginning to rise out of the groove profile........
Thanks for that - I will ask the transmission guy to do that, at least now I have the old pinion out I can also compare that to the new/old ring gear, to find the source of the problem.
Another theory is the wear was caused by a pinion that partially engages the starter ring, due age and dirt etc; the electricians think it is the original starter on the car.
Hi FIXWIN
Ge300 petrol - 1992
I am also having problems with my starter. i.e. motor turning but engine not always engaging. I don't know if it is a solenoid problem at the moment or anything to do with what this blog is all about. It is the original starter and teh car has 92K on teh clock.
I need to remove the starter and send it to an electrician's work shop for checking and possibly replacing if necessary before I break down in some god forsaken place in the middle of the night.
Can you pls guide on a step by step basis as to how this is removed from car and re-installed. I had a look under the car and it does not seem to have much room or easy access for disconnecting the electrical cables. Does one unbolt the starter motor , push it forward and then disconnect the electrics?? or I should have to remove other parts above it to allow access to the wiring?
Thanks
Quite a bit of information in this thread that may help you....
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Thank you for the idea Mercfan. I don't think it'll apply in this instance, there is a service history to my low mileage car but it's copied down I'll pass it on.
David