460 or 463

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Devonjem
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Hello

I am thinking of changing my current car - 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee - for one of these.  Another post mentions a 1989 japanese import currently being advertised on Ebay.  It looks good to me - the japanese import bit does not bother me - but it is a 460 and I understand these do not have ABS or permanent 4WD.

Does anyone have practical experience of driving both (460 and 463 SWB Auto) and if so were there any very obvious differences in normal on road driving?  Also any comments on the Japanese import would be helpful - the price seems a bit steep.  Also I see that G Class Centre has a couple of early 90s 463s being sold on behalf of customers - so I expect a PX might be unlikely.

thanks 

steve

prwales
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Re: 460 or 463

if you have ever driven an ordinary Ford Sierra and separately a XR4x4 the difference is vey similar. The w463 feels much more planted and solid on the road than the w460. This is the effect of the permanant four wheel drive. The w460 is more prone to rear 3/4 rust but its interior is more robust less plasticy. The w463 has better engines and marginaly better fuel consumtion despite the full time 4 wheel drive, ABS is a mixed blessing and disengages in low ratio or when you engage the locking differentials. Without it on the w460 you have the option of fitting rear discs. Try both, buy on condition, if you can secure the w460 cheaply you might consider a turbo diesel upgrade.

Spider1V
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Re: 460 or 463

Hello Devonjem,

I would go with PRWALES initial comments, as I have driven a 463 for a number of years it certainly does give the feeling of being 'planted' on the road, so no real lairy driving, if that's what you are looking for? 

I will also provide a warning about being in haste in getting into a G. Please take your time and do the research. There have been a number of retailer's passing off poor condition G's for premium prices. Unless you know the provenance of the vehicle STAY WELL AWAY!!!!! Other wise it will end in tears and you out of pocket by a considerable sum.

Spider1V

Roly
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Re: 460 or 463

Also have a look through previous posts. The 460 vs 463 debate can bring out strong feelings on both sides and it would be good to avoid that.

IanA2
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Re: 460 or 463

Never driven a 460, but I concur with other comments about the 463. It is "well planted" and quite honestly it drives pretty much as a car. I've a GES300 and aside from it being a tad underpowered it's a really good vehicle.

Pistonhead
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Re: 460 or 463

From my point of view, a move away from the Jeep is not a bad one. 

I have driven a Jeep Grand Cherokee for a very short period and the steering had a lot of play in it and its design in my opinion is inherently poor which gives rise to potential wear hence its sloppiness. I also do not like the archaic rear leaf spring suspension or its front suspension. Having said that, they seem to perform well on rock crawling trails.

Given my bias for the G-Class, naturally, I favour these. Unlike, the two comments made so far who reckon that, the W463 holds better on the road compared to the W460; I am not so sure, if anything at all, there is so little in that for me, both are equally good.

Between the Long Wheel Base (LWB) and Short Wheel Base (SWB) the LWB gives a better ride and is more suited as a touring vehicle. The LWB has tendencies to bottom out on peaks of hills so the SWB is much better suited under off roading conditions. Being a three door the SWB is not suited for a young family; child seats are awkward to get in and out of the vehicle. Vehicles' pre 1984 had no central locking, a much needed creature comfort for a LWB.

It is useful to have electric windows, if not fitted, there are aftermarket kits for the conversion. Same goes for central locking if needed.

If you have driven the G500 in Japan be warned the 230GE is distinctly different! The gross power difference for one. Please, please do drive any vehicle before you buy it and have it independently checked out.

The 230GE may have a small power unit but surprisingly it makes for an excellent urban vehicle; in town they are nipper than a 280GE. The 5 speed manual is available post 1984. If the vehicle is of Japanese spec. check what these specs are. On non UK spec. vehicles'; the front and or rear diff. locks are not a standard option, these are particularly selected by customer. So . check the spec sheet. Any enquiries you want to make about any of the vehicles you are interested in, please get the full chassis number for it.

The W460 is prone to rust of the rear panels, wheel arches, metal fuel tank (Plastic replacement and conversion kits are some £1400), front windscreen membrane. In recent years the rear coil spring and shock absorber cups and mounts are corroding away. The corrosion works its way inside out and any repair work has to be surgical removal replacement of. This "cancerous" condition applies to both, W460 and W463.

The early G-Wagens were for a retail market under powered, power issues had been been addressed in the latter model G-Wagens, the likes of 500G, G500, G350TD, G320, G320CDI, G400CDI - Twin turbos, and the G - AMGs'. The early G-Wagens were practical but not a performance vehicle for which one need to look at the latter versions and as such the prices increase.

The current trend to address power and performance is in diesel transplants of which several people are involved with. There are some four reputable members and non members involved in this field. Their names can be supplied from the Chairman.

Please do not be taken in by any solicitations from supposed representatives from or on behalf of the club. Check with our Chairman before hand. In, so far as comparisons in between W460 and W463 is concerned; the most noticeable difference is in the interior of the vehicle. The W463 has a more comfortable finish interior wise and the W460 has a relative comfortable but practical interior. Both models are spacious internally, adequate head room and generous seating and leg room.

The W460 come as 200G (Italy only), 230GE with M115 and M201 engine codes, 280GE with M110 engine and 300GD with an OM617 engine. The W463 has, in UK spec 300GE with M103 engine and a 300GD with OM 603 engine. 

Best advise I can give is to road test both models and as many vehicles possible, come to our local meetings and speak to members and get their first hand experience. 

 

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Re: 460 or 463

Hi Steve,

I've had both, and both were about the same age and mileage when I had them.   The 463 was much more comfortable at motorway speeds, and less prone to propshaft vibration, which is probably why the angles were changed.   When Mercedes launched the 463 in the U.K. it was firmly aimed at the Range Rover market, whereas initial marketing of the 460 was predominantly as an off road vehicle to rival the Toyota Land Cruiser, Nissan Patrol and Land Rover County.   Very early ones can be a bit basic in the cab.   Later on the interior spec and options were beefed up when it was seen by MB as a Range Rover rival.   This change in focus between the 460 and 463 is very much evident in the driving experience.

The 463 has more protection in the wheel arches (less rust).   My 460 had Recaro seats, so the seat comfort was about the same in each.   Getting to things in the 463 to repair them took a lot longer than in the 460 because there seemed to always be more trim in the way.   However the trim seems to keep condensation out and the back door appears to last longer before it rusts!   Being able to use low ratio on tarmac makes the 463 more versatile if you're towing a lot.   It gives much more control when manouvring the trailer.   However, a bad G is a money pit, so go for the best you can find whatever the model.

Audiominx
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Re: 460 or 463

I have only driven a 463 so call me biased, but 463!

So now you know

Devonjem
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Re: 460 or 463

Well thank you all for the comments about the car, and purchasing advice.  I do no serious off roading and prefer my creature comforts so that rather steers me towards a 463.  That means a bit of a price jump though so my Triumph Bonneville looks in jeopardy.  I will take on board the comments about the dealers.  Ballooner has 2 463s.  The cheaper one unfortunately has a paint job and wheels which are not to my taste and the dearer one justs seems too expensive for what it is.

Anyway as suggested I will take my time on this search.

Thanks again for all the responses, and offers of help.

Steve  

IanA2
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Re: 460 or 463

Bit off topic, I had a Bonnie years ago. Any chances of some pics? Pretty please smiley

 

Devonjem
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Re: 460 or 463

There you go Ian

 

diesel_jim
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Re: 460 or 463
Has anyone tried fitting the fulltime 4wd transfer box out of a 461/463 into a 460? Or are they totally incompatible. On older landrovers (as in the series3's, which were part time 4wd, you needed to swap the UJ's in the front axle for CV joints that could handle drive when on tarmac without kicking back through the steering wheel.
Pistonhead
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Re: 460 or 463

This is not easily done, for changing over a W463 transferbox (t/box) requires the change of front and rear axles or the crown wheels and pinions at the least.

It is to do with t/box gear rotation; the front and rear propshafts rotate in different directions to a W460 t/box. Secondly, I do not know if the wider width of the W463 t/box can be accommodated within the narrower chassis of the W460. 

Thirdly, to have the center diff. engaging of the W463 t/box requires the pneumatics to be transferred over and circuited in.

Lastly, the W463 t/box mounts are at a different height. The W463 t/box, when in a W463 allows for straight prop. shaft alignment of the prop. shaft between the gearbox and t/box input flange. The prop. shaft alignment of the front and rear prop. shaft is at a less acute angle to the W460 layout.

Theoretically, speaking, I do not think there would be steering kick back issue if one wanted to convert as the W463 t/box has its own differential and not use as L/Rover use a drive line viscous coupling.

JASONGDS
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Re: 460 or 463

If performance important to you, you are best sticking with your Jeep, unless you have deep pockets and can afford a V8 G etc, if you are happy with a bit more sedate drive and appreciate the quality and better view , sure you will like the G.

IanA2
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Re: 460 or 463
Thanks and very nice too, a bit more modern than mine. No such thing as disc brakes when I was riding them!
David J. Pearson
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Re: 460 or 463

Lucky enough to drive both on a regular basis. In a nutshell I prefer the 460 230GE for local country lane work, off road and commuting to work - actually find it more comfortable - fitted with a good set of Recaro's though. The G500 any day on a long run/ motorway work .Seats not as comfortable as 460, for my ample frame at least, and not as compliant a ride. Fuel consumption very similar for both 17 to 20 if I'm lucky. Thats beginning to sting a bit. I'm with Fred on that one, just bought a S/H Polo for commuting. Does the job. Rusting on a 460 needs to be considered too. Not an issue with the G500

David

 

derekfinn
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Re: 460 or 463

Never realised a 230 petrol was so heavy on fuel consumption.. 

fredecosse
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Re: 460 or 463

 Bear in mind no matter what G you drive, they are all heavy on consumption ... 230 or a V8 or a diesel.

bigblock
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Re: 460 or 463

If you want to use  Landrover as a simple reference point for comparison the 460 is the Defender and the 463 is the Rangerover.

Before I am lynched and thrown off the forum I should point out that the G is a far superior product in terms of build quality and my comparison with LR is only to illustrate the differences between the 460 and 463 in terms of refinement. smiley 

fredecosse
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Re: 460 or 463

Playing on the edge there Big man ....

diesel_jim
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Re: 460 or 463

bigblock wrote:

If you want to use  Landrover as a simple reference point for comparison the 460 is the Defender and the 463 is the Rangerover.

Before I am lynched and thrown off the forum I should point out that the G is a far superior product in terms of build quality and my comparison with LR is only to illustrate the differences between the 460 and 463 in terms of refinement. smiley

 

 

don't panic.... i'm currently trying to sell one of my LRs to get a G... after reading this thread I think it's a 463 I want...been spoiled all these years with full time 4wd!

derekfinn
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Re: 460 or 463

463 all the way... 

Spider1V
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Re: 460 or 463

bigblock wrote:

If you want to use  Landrover as a simple reference point for comparison the 460 is the Defender and the 463 is the Rangerover.

Before I am lynched and thrown off the forum I should point out that the G is a far superior product in terms of build quality and my comparison with LR is only to illustrate the differences between the 460 and 463 in terms of refinement. smiley 

 

And here is BB in his Range Rover now supplied with a new overdrive..... Nice cheeky. The best 4x4xFar?? devil

Spider1V

diesel_jim
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Re: 460 or 463

Neeeigh! that picture makes RR owners look like an ass!  smiley

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Re: 460 or 463

Here's my thoughts. I'm fairly new to the G world and bought a really nice w460 lwb a year ago ( for sale in the classified). I've now got a 94 turbo diesel 463. For off road I'd use a 460 on road cruising it has to be the 463. It's one of the most comfortable cars to travel in. It's still a tall 4x4 so don't expect it to handle at all. That's not what they're about. Drove a Jeep recently. Never again. Had an early Range Rover. Never again... Talk to someone with a G before you spend and go from there.

 

bigblock
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Re: 460 or 463

Spider1V wrote:

bigblock wrote:

If you want to use  Landrover as a simple reference point for comparison the 460 is the Defender and the 463 is the Rangerover.

Before I am lynched and thrown off the forum I should point out that the G is a far superior product in terms of build quality and my comparison with LR is only to illustrate the differences between the 460 and 463 in terms of refinement. smiley 

 

And here is BB in his Range Rover now supplied with a new overdrive..... Nice cheeky. The best 4x4xFar?? devil

Spider1V

 

 The reason Spider is always banging on about V8 power is because he needs it to propel his very tasteful G about town.

Something to do with compensating and trouser department, maybe.

 

  

 

Spider1V
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Re: 460 or 463

bigblock wrote:

Spider1V wrote:

bigblock wrote:

If you want to use  Landrover as a simple reference point for comparison the 460 is the Defender and the 463 is the Rangerover.

Before I am lynched and thrown off the forum I should point out that the G is a far superior product in terms of build quality and my comparison with LR is only to illustrate the differences between the 460 and 463 in terms of refinement. smiley 

 

And here is BB in his Range Rover now supplied with a new overdrive..... Nice cheeky. The best 4x4xFar?? devil

Spider1V

 

 

Something to do with compensating and trouser department, maybe.

LOL well the doctor did tell me not to lift anything heavy wink

 

Spider1V

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Re: 460 or 463

tbh the 463 is the far superior G, especially if you want comfort as priority. 

 

i personally own 2 460's and a 463.  all are lovely to drive in there own way.

 

460 feels more tank like. but on the motorway not too pleasent above 65 mph, no matter what anyone says...

post 96 onwards [with silent shafts] 463 is the pure 4x4 machine. great on road , s class comfort. if you have a fat wallet V8. 

if you want to be wise, the G270 or  [G300 TD lhd].

 

BTW,  theres a few nice lhd 463 on the net right, and ofrcourse spiders, and fred's lovely V8's..

a clean 460 in unmolested condition is gaining value all the time. finding  a rust free one is very hard. unless you fancy my 79G 460's here in cyprus.

 

GOOD LUCK AND DONT LOOK BACK !

 

rgds hus

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Re: 460 or 463

What about the 461?  or are these very rare? (like the .pur)

 

In my mind (which is more than likely wrong....) the 461 is half way between the "luxury" of the 463 and the ruggedness of the 460??

Fred Frederickson
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Re: 460 or 463

Have been reading through and started my initial quest, and after a wet weekend looking at some G's down near reading, must say the 463 is much better equiped for the luxury and has better road manners, like the LR's of old. I have also found this one.... is the price/mileage correct? 

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/mercedes-benz/g-class/m...

I ask as reading through some past posts, it appears that the old G's had an odometer that would only go up to 99,999 and then reset to zero, though looking at the paint work it has been looked after.

I also found this... shame its a 'Left hooker' but a diesel V8..... nice interior, but sadly vetoed by the wife - she wanted a Range Rover for that price! (and one you can use in this country!')

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/mercedes-benz/g-class/m...

All the big engined G's tend to be left hookers - is that the case, most of the RHD ones I find (in acceptable condition) are all 3L petrol or smaller. Is that the case that diesel G's are few and far to find?

Fred Frederickson

 

mark
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Re: 460 or 463

Any diesel 463 after about 1995 is likely to be LHD. It was only a few years ago that they made more diesel RHD's and they will be 350CDI's, 2010 onwards I think. Still lots of money So pretty much 15 odd years of no diesel 463's in RHD

 
That 280GE needs to be as new for that money, thats a museum piece, lol.
 
Really is worth looking in Germany and importing, it's not that G's are cheaper there, it's just there are so many to choose from.
 
Re, the Range Rover. They will be pennies in a few years time. The G will hold it's value. Plus you won't spend as much time sitting in a recovery truck :)
Fred Frederickson
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Re: 460 or 463

mark wrote:

Any diesel 463 after about 1995 is likely to be LHD. It was only a few years ago that they made more diesel RHD's and they will be 350CDI's, 2010 onwards I think. Still lots of money So pretty much 15 odd years of no diesel 463's in RHD

 
That 280GE needs to be as new for that money, thats a museum piece, lol.
 
Really is worth looking in Germany and importing, it's not that G's are cheaper there, it's just there are so many to choose from.
 
Re, the Range Rover. They will be pennies in a few years time. The G will hold it's value. Plus you won't spend as much time sitting in a recovery truck :)

 

Hello Mark - many thanks for the notes. I have looked on the German sites, but sadly will need a right hooker. I think you posted earlier that the European ones are less 'kited out' and looking at them I do see what you mean!

What about the cost of converting LHD to RHD? Is it worth the hassle? reading up on the Mercedes engines the 320 CDI in a G in RHD would be the perfect tool in my opinion of looking at G for the past few weeks. But I guess it does not exist?

Looking at the ones I saw today, I am thinking that the LWB would be more practical? I love the handy size of the SWB, but the inside boot I am thinking will not hold what I need. The blokes at the Garage did say that a roof rack will add height and weight to G as well as reducing 'what is already a poor MPG number'.

Though that red one I linked up earlier - looks good - you would suggest ignore it? More for a serious collector?

Many thanks for your help and advice!

Fred Frederickson

mark
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Re: 460 or 463

If the add is to be believed, and I have no reason not to, it is a real beauty. But I would say yes, for a collector.

 
The main practical difference between G320CDI and the G350CDI, is Euro 4 and Euro 5. Same 3 litre V6 CDI engine. I think you are right though, only G350CDI in RHD.
 
I have no idea about cost of converting LHD to RHD.  Would be a nightmare of a job on any late G Wagen, sure you would be talking massive money. Would be better to get an older RHD and upgrade engine I would think.  
 
Those of us with LHD think they are better anyway, but then we would say that, lol. I think you get used to what you have.
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Re: 460 or 463

der beste 4x4 mit Abstand, as they say in Germany.....