Starter motor

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John757
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Hi all

 

very cold morning this morning... when i tried to start my G the starter motor spun without turning the engine over.. second try it worked fine... worked OK all day... not had this issue before... is there anything i should look at? am i correct in assuming the solenoid didn't fire the starter motor into the ring gear? possibly sticking due to cold weather?  can i lubricate it or am i looking at a new/recon starter motor?

all advice appreciated

Pistonhead
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Re: Starter motor

Check the battery voltage firstly, being a cold day could have drained the battery if it is already old or weak. There could have been enough power to throw the starter out but not at the full force to engage into the starter ring gear. The starter would not turn unless the solenoid engaged first anyway. Starters usually give trouble at around the 70 -80,000 miles mark. I would suggest a local starter and alternator shop to refurbish this if the problem persists and, or charge the battery up and see.

ErnestTBass
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Re: Starter motor

A common problem with the 280 engine starter is the solenoid sticking caused by oil leaking from the rear crank shaft seal - the only way to check that is to remove it a look.

Other problems other than weak battery could be a bad earth or even a poor connection in the ignition switch failing to provide enough current to fire the solenoid. (this can be cured cheaply by incorporating a relay to power the solenoid then even a poor contact will provide enough current and save the cost of a new ignition switch)

There is a small connection block on the 280 near the brake servo, from memory its attached to the inner fender and has a flip up lid. In that are several cables two of which if shorted together will fire the starter solenoid and bypass the ignition switch - if it works well from there chances are the ignition switch is bad.

 

I had the same problem for years and it was intermittent - didn't want to replace the starter as 1, it had been replaced just before I bought the truck and 2, its a pia to remove it - long extension and universal joint needed to get at the top allen bolt.

Strangely in my case after removing the inlet manifold warm up regulator and all the injection bits and vacuum pipes and associated electrical bits an bobs to re-build the fuel injection system it has gone away so I'm suspecting a bad earth.

Its just a process of elimination - like most things on these trucks - good luck with the hunt!

 

 

Thomaz
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Re: Starter motor
Hi, If the motor spins then there is not nothing wrong with the solenoid. The solenoid has to engage to bridge the contact to spin the motor. I learned this looking for the same fault. Mine did the exact same thing and became worse over time to a point where it was just spinning but nothing happened. Found out that the clutch on the starter was worn and slipping. Cheers
John757
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Re: Starter motor

Well after a freezing cold night.... the started spun without engaging and turning the engine.... tried five or six times... then put the auto into 2nd and rolled back gently on my drive... no clunks or strange noises... started then spun over engine.. battery checked and in excellent condition... .... she started ok... ran her for five mins then same happened on attempted restart.... got underneath and sprayed connections with WD40 and also on the ones Ernest T BAss kindly mentioned on the inner wing..i also gave some gentle taps on the solenoid with a nylon hammer... she seems to start ok now.... but im sure i haven't heard the last from this....  MB wants £602 for a new starter and solenoid... i suppose mine is 25 years old... seen some on ebay for about £210-270  but my solenoid is on the bottom... theirs appear to be on the top... i dont know if removing the motor and stripping it is something i can do?... never attempted it before... i dont want to be stranded in the cold weather.... am tempted to bite the bullet and buy a new one from MB and fit it myself... ive heard its a awkward job... baulking at 600quid at the mo...

what would you do?

JASONGDS
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Re: Starter motor
Remove starter motor and take it to a good repair place? Though would have thought with all these 280 engines being ripped out,for 606s,no second hand examples? Certainly would not pay £600!
John757
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Re: Starter motor

anyone know the correct part number for my starter motor so i can get the correct replacement?

 

vin WDB46023227066747.      (1990)

spike1
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Re: Starter motor

Hi John, I have a spare starter motor but it's off of a GD300, I'm not all sure it will be compatible with the petrol engine but if it fits your welcome to it. Paul  

John757
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Re: Starter motor

spike1 wrote:

Hi John, I have a spare starter motor but it's off of a GD300, I'm not all sure it will be compatible with the petrol engine but if it fits your welcome to it. Paul  

 

Many thanks spike...had a great chat with Axel who found me one... should be all sorted soon... Im so glad I joined GWOA.... a really helpful group of enthusiasts.. smiley

needamerc
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Re: Starter motor

Diesel OM617 and petrol M110 starters are not compatible.

There is no reason in the world to fit a new one, have yours reconditioned including a new solenoid and new bendix.

There is no point fitting a second-hand one unless it has a new solenoid and bendix.

It is a VERY tedious job to remove the starter from a 280GE. To make life a LOT easier remove the front propshaft first. Probably not a job for the inexperienced (no insult intended).

Eddie.

axel
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Re: Starter motor
I am putting the starter I have found for John in at a local electrical auto tech. Shop for a full service and test before fitting . It is a genuine 280ge starter m 110 model. Agreed it is a real pig to fit .
John757
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Re: Starter motor

Thanks Eddie.... im learning slowly how to do various jobs...  how easy is it to remove the prop?

needamerc
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Re: Starter motor

Get them to do the bendix Axel. Regular fail on M110 in my experience.

needamerc
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Re: Starter motor

Open 13 spanner, lots of muscle and lots of patience.

John757
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Re: Starter motor

Im told i will need some allen keys with a socket drive to remove the starter retaining bolts... would long reach or short reach hex drive keys be  the most suitable ?? and what size? .. so i get the correct set

 

 

John

gav.helme
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Re: Starter motor

John

M12 Allen Head Bolt, usually M10 Allen Key Size

MB list the Starter Motor A003 151 99 01 / 80 as £559 + VAT for a ReMan exchange option and Germany have 60 on final stocks

Shame your dealer didn't offer you the Brand New option A003 151 99 01 as they list as £141 + VAT and Germany have 12 in stock

Unusual pricing as it's normally the opposite but worth checking!

Oh well guess you are sorted now anyway?

Gav

John757
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Re: Starter motor

That odd Gav..... a new motor for 4 times less than a recon one....surprise

if it is complete with a solenoid it would be worth considering... I have emailed my dealer to see if they come up with the same result...

John757
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Re: Starter motor

the dealers reply was this..

."That starter motor is the part number for your vehicle but what it does say on the system is that the price is simulated and not a confirmed price due to the fact they haven’t sold one for over 12 months. I can ask our warehouse to confirm the price if you would like. It will probably take me a few days to get a response? "

I will find out next week.... if i can get a new one for the £141 quoted... 

(I will let you know first Axelsmiley)

gav.helme
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Re: Starter motor

Who dreams up this Bull!!!

Like your post on the other thread, they do give themselves a bad name!!!

If you walk into a shop and a £500 pair of shoes are marked at £50, then that's what they have to sell them to you at!!

I once got away with a £150 tent that was supposed to be 10% off but was marked up as for sale at £15

The Starter is listed as RRP of £141 + vat, if you ordered one today, then that is what they must sell you it at..simple

If MB change it next week as it is incorrect then that's OK, but both MB and the dealer have to honour that price today

End of...

prwales
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Re: Starter motor

they are difficult to remove and to refit, ideally you need someone with small hands

John757
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Re: Starter motor

We all would like someone with small hands!!  ....makes my starter look bigger!! lol

i guess im going to get some knuckle skinning done with my giant hands... am considering removing the front prop first...apparently it helps a lot..

 

 

Arnie
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Re: Starter motor

gav.helme wrote:

John

M12 Allen Head Bolt, usually M10 Allen Key Size

MB list the Starter Motor A003 151 99 01 / 80 as £559 + VAT for a ReMan exchange option and Germany have 60 on final stocks

Shame your dealer didn't offer you the Brand New option A003 151 99 01 as they list as £141 + VAT and Germany have 12 in stock

Unusual pricing as it's normally the opposite but worth checking!

Oh well guess you are sorted now anyway?

Gav

 

That's interesting. Similar thing happened to me with a radiator for a 463. However, the price difference was not that great, then.

 

 

John757
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Re: Starter motor

I got this today at 11am from my local MB dealership 

Good Afternoon 

The warehouse has come back to me and the price for the starter motor was incorrect. It is actually £603.60 including the vat so the same price as the exchange part

Kind Regards

***************

 

no surprise there then!!  

 

 

 

 

 

John757
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Re: Starter motor

Interestingly this almost complete S/H engine is the same price MB wants for an exchange starter motor!!

£600!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCEDES-G-WAGON-W460-G-CLASS-280GE-ENGINE-M-110-994-/221655135308?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276

fcp
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Re: Starter motor

I'd ditch the MB unit entirely.. Wosp starters are designed for race applications, considerably lighter, higher torque (sounds like  a race engine spinning up!) and better built than the OEM in my experience.  The same basic unit covers all of the main MB models http://www.amp-starters.co.uk/Automotive-Starter-Motors/Mercedes-Starters/c-1-599-3441/ I've bought a couple from Amp and service was exceptional!

 

More here http://www.wosperformance.co.uk/products/starter-motors/

fcp
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Re: Starter motor

One other tip - removing prop shaft will require a 14mm for bolt, 13mm for nut. Life is made immeasurably easier if you have an open ended racheting spanner set as it will reduce the job per end from about an hour to 10 minutes!)

From memory, refitting torque for the bolts is 35Nm and if you are refitting the original bolts and nuts (they should really be replaced on such a critical part!), clean them well and use medium strength locktite (you might need a little heat to remove the old ones too).

Arnie
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Re: Starter motor

Very interesting, the WOSP starters. They seem compact and well built, particularly those with the epi-cyclic gears.

Do the electrical connections match up well with existing cables etc?

 

 

fcp
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Re: Starter motor

Yes as there are only 2 - solenoid +ve and earth, at most a single inline push fit coupling needed (a halford staple)

John757
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Re: Starter motor

got a new starter today from Gav for a great price!!  (Gav is the man!) .... 

fitting it tomorrow.... one question to the forum....

 

Loctite thread lock or copper grease on the fitting bolts??

fcp
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Re: Starter motor

From memory M10 Capscrews?

Done properly, that means setting the right torque (50Nm is one figure I can find),  but in practice as that article says it will be difficult given their location - snuck up quite tight, but not 'everything you can give it' (which is the usual mistake people make thinking that 'tighter-is-righter' when in fact stretched bolt threads [or worse stretched hole threads] mean no pre-load and consequently worse retention). Blue locktite (medium strength -don't overdo it!) if you want to be belt and braces.

John757
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Re: Starter motor----Fixed

FIXED

 

Solenoidfrown was covered in oil.... replaced with new one.....   problem has not reoccurred....  despite taking whole starter to Bosch service Centre for fault diagnosis... they found nothing wrong... so called expert gave starter back with solenoid smeared with oil (wrong) it should be dry..