P456 APG - 300GES

13 replies [Last post]
alastair.purcell
alastair.purcell's picture
Offline
Joined: 03.02.2014
GWOA Groups: Members

I wonder if anyone can point to the owner of a 300GES with Reg P456 APG? Or if you're a member here, would love to hear from you. I'm looking for help on navigating the new a TFL emissions T-Charge.

 

I've been going around the houses with TFL trying to get them to recognise that my 1991 300GEL [Reg CL8917] should be exempt from the T-Charge. I've checked with the vehicle Homologation group in Milton Keynes and they are clear that although old, many of the M103 E30  engines do comply with the EURO 4 emissions criteria. 

 

On the T-Charge checker on the TFL website, this 300GES, P456 APG, comes up as compliant - so does comply! Your vehicle is not subject to the T-Charge.

 

To be clear on my facts, I wanted to double check the engine details with the owner - or the engine may have been "gassed" and that's why the vehicle is exempt?? t

 

Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated. Anyone who is prepared to help, please feel free to try my phone number 07770 623755 or email > alastair.purcell@parkfire.com < .

Thanks, Alastair.

 

 

prwales
prwales's picture
Offline
Joined: 30.05.2007
Location: West Glamorgan
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

mine certainly complies with Euro3 without the cat being fitted

alastair.purcell
alastair.purcell's picture
Offline
Joined: 03.02.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Sadly for this new London T-Charge [aimed at reducing emissions in Central London]  petrol vehicles need to comply with Euro4.

My 1991 300GEL has the same 103 engine [and has a CAT converter] as the 1996 300GES - the GES complies with Euro4 and the my 300GEL apparently doesn't comply. I believe that Transport for London assume that it doesn't comply as engine Certificates of Conformity were only required for vehicles manufactured or imported into the UK from 1992.

If there is anyone else a 463 3.0litre PETROL M103 engine that complies, I'd be interested to hear. jJust enter your reg details here > https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surcharge/emissions-surcharge-checker

< Thanks. A

Arnie
Arnie's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: London
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Hello,

I highlighted this some months ago.


For what it's worth, my P-reg G300ES is NOT showing as exempt.

The T-Charge is currently at Euro-4 or above for exemption but will soon require Euro-6. and perhaps even Euro-6 with Real-World Emission test, so any exemption you may get will be short-lived.

However, I can tell you that TFL have much of their information incorrect. I have tested a number of registrations of friends and family and even random cars seen on the road. I can enter the registration of some, post 2000, Euro-3 vehicles and find they are exempt and these are identical models and registration years to some that are (correctly- as not Euro-4) not exempt. This even applies to vehicles with same identical engines and emissions control, but different model classes (some M113 engined vehicles - 2 generations on from M103 - show as exempt, others not).

I think that any petrol vehicle with fuel injection and an engine in good order (not an oil-burner) should be pretty-much clean enough to operate in the zone. The main concern is probably NOx, but the Mayor declared recently that over 50% of NOx in London is from wood-burning ? Overall, there is a lot of hype and propaganda and very little understanding from politicians or lobby groups.

 

Required emissions standards

The minimum emissions standards are:

Euro 4/IV for both petrol and diesel vehicles

Euro 3 for motorised tricycles and quadricycles

alastair.purcell
alastair.purcell's picture
Offline
Joined: 03.02.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Thanks for that Arnie.

You’re so right – lots of hype. And the TFL “Customer Service” teams are obviously not engineers or chemists, so I’m trying to wear them down with well-reasoned facts ) But I agree: A well maintained and tuned engine, however old, can be very efficient and petrol engines can certainly achieve Euro 4. And it seems that the standards for the Ultra Low Emissions Zone from September 2020, will still only require petrol vehicles to comply with Euro 4 – and Diesel Euro 6 [but that could be changed as we get to 2020] Main hassle is that will be 24 hours a day / 365 days a year. Not great.

I had my engine re-machined / re-build by CREWE ENGINES and also re-built my BOSH K-Jetronic only 10k miles ago – I’ve also just fitted a CGON Ortho-Hydrogen unit > https://www.cgon.co.uk <. Although CGON are careful not to make too many specific emissions claims, the science of it is convincing. The fuel savings are very real though. I’ve increased my MPG around town from 13.5 to just over 17MPG [ but we don’t drive Gs for the fuel efficiency, but there is certainly a change for the better. And “smoothness” is not a technical term, but the engine is certainly running very happily.

I was advised by TFL that if I got an emissions test at a DVLA/DVSA approved test centre and could prove Euro4 I’d be fine. So duly went to the Abellio test centre in London only to be told by the duty VSA guy, that they only test Diesels. The VSA tester was actually very helpful and suggested the IVA option [Individual Vehicle Approval]. …But then the next catch - the DVSA do not carry out this type of testing for Light and Medium vehicles over 10 years old [or for HGVs over 25 years old]. Even at around £500, this might have been an option. Obviously commissioning an individual Real Driving Emissions test would be prohibitive, and probably not recognised by TFL anyway.

I’m going to carry on with my submissions to TFL in the hope that somebody decides that maybe an older vehicle could comply…..or until they run out of boxes to tick or cross. I’ll people know how I get on. Obviously most people know about CREWE ENGINES, but I certainly think that CGON are worth looking at. Their units work for petrol or Diesel engines. If anyone wants any more specifics on my experience with CGON and getting the unit fitted, I’m very happy for a PM or just call on 07770 – 623 755. Alastair.

JASONGDS
JASONGDS's picture
Offline
Joined: 15.07.2011
Location: High Peak
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Re your hydrogen kit, does it use a lot of electricity? Had one on my diesel did something but reckon it shortened the life of the belt tensioner and alternator with the strain imposed on them

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Arnie
Arnie's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: London
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

The ULEV Zone has been brought forward to April 2019. I understand the desire to have your engine approved and indeed the M103 is a very sweet engine. However, although it appeared in the G in the 1990's, it was actually a 1980's engine. The NOx and HC limits for Euro-4 are approx 1/10 of those for Euro-1, which applied in 1992 to the G version of the M103. As good as the engine is, with its  KE Jetronic system,  and with the  3-way catalytic converter, I  doubt that it would meet Euro-4 for NOx without an EGR system and auxiliary air pump. 

 

 

alastair.purcell
alastair.purcell's picture
Offline
Joined: 03.02.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Thanks for that Arnie. 

Realise I’m up against it – your highlighting the huge difference between EURO 1 and EURO 4 certainly shines a light on my problem! I believe the CGON system will certainly help, but certainly can’t quantify the NOx reduction. 

 

So is there any way I can retro-fit an EGR valve and auxiliary air pump to an M103?? All the retro-fits I can find online are for diesels.

 

@Jason > Answering your question: This system uses very little current and is not hooked up to anything other than the Ortho-Hydrogen pipe into the air-filter box. No moving parts. The website is quite clear, but if you want any pictures or a chat about it, please feel free to call.

 

Thanks for any further help or suggestions. Best. Alastair.

Arnie
Arnie's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: London
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Everything is possible, but it will be a question of time and money and I don't know how you will get official certification afterwards.

The M103 has electronically-enhanced, mechanical, continuous, fuel injection and also electronic ignition, but the main issue is that the two operate somewhat independently and there is no master engine controller, which nowadays would take care of complete engine management, including when to operate the aux air pump and EGR valve, as well as providing tighter control of the catalytic converter. As I previously mentioned, its M112, V6, successor, following the M103 and subsequent M104 and which has all the advanced engine management is only certified to Euro-3, so you would have a steep hill to climb. Incidentally, some cars with the M112 and from as early as 2000/2001, do show as T-Charge except, so that is one of the anomalies of the TFL data. perhaps owners of those models have managed to get the 'early adopter approval', showing that the engine does meet Euro-4 ?

I don't know what your envisaged expenditure would be on the T-Charge with your present G300E, but it may be cheaper to find another vehicle or consider an engine transplant if its to be on a daily basis, than to upgrade your existing engine. Although, having said that, you might wish to investigate, 3rd party fuel-injection and engine management systems and see what they may offer.

 

 

 

Arnie
Arnie's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: London
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

JASONGDS wrote:

Re your hydrogen kit, does it use a lot of electricity? Had one on my diesel did something but reckon it shortened the life of the belt tensioner and alternator with the strain imposed on them

 

 

​see this:https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/cgon-ltd-a17-386763.html

alastair.purcell
alastair.purcell's picture
Offline
Joined: 03.02.2014
GWOA Groups: Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Mmmmm. Thanks for that Arnie.

I'll remain a fan as long as it's reducing my fuel bill, but clearly not proven [or tested] enough...

And on Jason's question: No moving parts at all.

Back to my initial question: I'm presuming no record of this 300GES reg P456 APG within the GWOA?

Arnie
Arnie's picture
Offline
Joined: 12.04.2004
Location: London
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

I don't have access to the membership files, so cannot help on the registration. Sorry.

With regards to the device, I don't doubt that it is saving you fuel or providing more MPG, but fail to understand how.

I see that it electroylses a water solution to produce hydrogen. Now, it is claimed that a 250ml sachet of electrolyte will last some 6,000 miles. That amount of (electrolyte) water will produce a little more than 275 litres of H2 at standard temp and pressure if all consumed. With an engine displacement of 3 litres and even assuming a low 5% contribution to the gassoline fuel, it's hard to see how it would keep going for 6,000 miles?

Also, from the fundamental laws of thermodynamics you can't get more energy out from the hydrogen in recombining (burning) it with oxygen than was required to separate it (electrolyse it) from the oxygen (H2O) in the first-place (and at low efficiency : engine thermal efficiency 30%, alternator efficiency 40%, combined efficiency 12%)

I can only assume, therefore that the presence of hydrogen in the combustion chamber does not act as part of the primary fuel, but as some kind of catalyst to improve the performance and energy release from the fuel?

bigblock
bigblock's picture
Offline
Joined: 27.05.2009
Location: HIGHLANDS
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

There was a fairly lengthy discussion on the forum a few years ago which may be of interest, about a similar system one of our members was advocating.

 

http://www.gwoa.co.uk/forum/hydrogen-alternative

G-Restorations
G-Restorations's picture
Offline
Joined: 07.04.2011
Location: Blackpool
GWOA Groups: Committee, Members
Re: P456 APG - 300GES

Myth busters did a program on hydrogen generators, they came to the conclusion it was akin to snake oil.

My take on most of these magical fuel saving devices, if they worked manufacturers would be using them.

Gordon