Newbie

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tonyhayhighland
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Hi everyone

New to G Wagons just got my self a 1989 230ge as a non runner that just won't start but I will get there with some help I hope:)

I was into series land rovers for years but always wanted a G wagon - can't wait to get her on the road.

So far I have done new plugs,ht leads,dizzy cap and rotor,ignition coil,fuel pump and filter,oil filter and just put a new water pump becuse it was leaking and finally thermostat.

So I think I'm going to have quite a few questions along my G wagon journey:) Oh the paper work I got with my "G" the previous owner was a member also.

Thanks and a great to be part of the club..

GWOA Admin
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Re: Newbie

Welcome and thanks for the membership.

You should get a fair bit of help here, and on the forum.  There are a few other groups for G- Wagen also... its a fairly small community.

Well done with the work so far.  In the end they are MB engines and many parts are the same, but you get to know the G specific bits.

For the 230GE, assuming you have spark and compression, it will be the kJetronic fuel delivery.  Make sure you have pressure from the electric fuel pump (under, to the front of the fuel tank), and a working 'accumulator' next to it.  Then the kJet works on vacuum pressure - if you have a leak in the pipes, the distribution and delivery of fuel will be out.  Best to assume the injectors themselves are good enough for now.  There is a black rubber connecting vacuum pipe under the air box which often splits causing problems... glue and tape it up(!) until you can renew it. 

And post a pic if you can work out how to add one to a post (see Choose File).  Well done not posting multiples on your first post, which generally takes about 1minute with no sign it is working.

 

Nick123
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Re: Newbie
Good luck with it all. It's a commitment, that's for sure.
tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Ok That's the fuel pump, fuel filter and fuel accumulator done! Still not starting 

She's wanting to start there is fuel presure there is spark. When trying to start she give a kind of back pressure noise out of the air intake with a wee bit of smoke.

Any help would be so apprecated just want to hear her run and leave me with some hair not much left to pull.

Thanks

gav.helme
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Re: Newbie

 

Has she been stood for a while?

M102 seem to be prone to sticking exhaust vales when stood for a good while

The 4 pot engine can't cope with the lack of compression 

Often shows up with a puff of grey smoke that looks like steam even if it starts and runs lumpy will smoke and smell terribly 

Simple compression test should show it up 

 

gav.helme
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Re: Newbie

 

Has she been stood for a while?

M102 seem to be prone to sticking exhaust vales when stood for a good while

The 4 pot engine can't cope with the lack of compression 

Often shows up with a puff of grey smoke that looks like steam even if it starts and runs lumpy will smoke and smell terribly 

Simple compression test should show it up 

 

gav.helme
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Re: Newbie

So important I posted it twice ;0)

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Thank you I think your bang on mate.

Will let you know  after testing. Cheers

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Ok - no sticking valve so checked the timing and it was way out think the previous owner took the distributor out for some reason and moved the rotor arm. Starts now but only runs for a few seconds.

The fuel pump primes then turns of when the engine starts. Is this how it works goes on and off when needed?

She will run continue with easystart sprayed in the air intake. ( she sounds sweet )

Any help please.

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Or is it a failing fuel pump relay?

Jdring
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Re: Newbie

tonyhayhighland wrote:

Or is it a failing fuel pump relay?

Doubt it. Pump runs, gets to pressure and stops. That's normal.  It will/should run again, and it is new so pressure should be sufficient (that's important).  This sounds like kJetronic control issue to me.  I had starting issues (ran fine once started) and had to take it to a KJet knowledgable mechanic in Reading (mainly just because they had the emmissions gear).  At the moment mine runs well but very rich and excessive CO, so I need to revisit it and probably change the injectors next.

The 230/280 KJetronic is mostly all self managing.  There are no real adjustments you can make manually, but there is one really sensitive one on the top of the fuel distributor which is the IDLE mixture which adjusts the position of the air intake plate to get the idle mixture right.  The system takes care of mixture when throttle is opened.

There is also a Warm up Regulator, (WUR), and other bits...Control Pressure Regular

Take a look at my saga here:  http://www.gwoa.co.uk/content/230ge-engine-stutter-misfire-jetronic 

because there are some good tuning reference guides there, like this one:

https://tasteslikepetrol.net/2020/02/bosch-k-jetronic-basics/

It explains what and how to test.

 

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Hi all when Iturn the key i hear the pump prime for 3 seconds but when i crank her over the pump switches of is this a problem with the relay? Just can't get my head round when the relay powers the pump to prime but cuts of when trying to start.

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Thanks for that JDring

I now definitely now think it is the K Jetrnic control unit. Can anyone recommend someone or somewhere I can send it to for repair? Thanks for the replys it's just so frustrating.

I have been reading up on it and it sounds like turn the key and the fuel relay starts the fuel pump for 3 seconds to prime and the pressure goes through the cold start and the endgine starts. Once running a pulse is sent to the ignotion control relay and then back to the K Jetronic ECU (BCU) then a signal back to fuel relay to start pumping again. That's why I think my ECU is faulty.

 

Jdring
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Re: Newbie

It took me a while to get to the bottom of my 230GE stutter.  Various cumulative issues.

My fuel pump had been bypassed so it ran continuously (i.e. not via the Pump Relay).  I believe that was a pump relay fault and the relay was replaced and it got put back to working as it should (gets to pressure, shuts off, restarts when/as needed).

You could wire the pump to an ignition live, so it runs continous, then see if your engine keeps running (without easystart!) and find what else is not perfect (is it smooth, idle good, warm up regulator works? etc).  If the kJet controller is faulty (ECU sounds too modern) then you may see other issues to confirm it and can get a replacement.

But do not live with a hot wired fuel pump if it runs well.  You'll need that pump relay to be doing its job.  Maybe just replace that Relay first.

prwales
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Re: Newbie

Have you checked the fuel tank itself, they rust from the top downwards and can fill with crud, it could have been that that killed your pump in the first instance. Quite straightforward to take off but I'd replace the whole tank with a later one from a 463, but it means you need to re route the exhaust too

markhowes
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Re: Newbie
"So far I have done new plugs,ht leads,dizzy cap and rotor,ignition coil,fuel pump and filter,oil filter and just put a new water pump becuse it was leaking and finally thermostat."
 
Ah yes, the memory comes flooding back. I did more or less the same (well the plugs, HT leads, dizzy cap and rotor at any rate) without success but then fitted a new relay (fairly cheap from eBay) and all was well with the world.
 
Mine is a 463 300 petrol so probably not strictly comparable.
 
 
tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Thanks for all the replys guys gives me a lot more to go on with.

Cheers

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Hi all apologies for all the questions when I start the G I i have mentioned she is running then cutting out what is happening now the air intake is flapping up and down fast is it supposed to do that or have I found another problem. It diden't do this on the previous times and all i have done is clean up some wire connection beside the coil. 

Jdring
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Re: Newbie

tonyhayhighland wrote:

... the air intake is flapping up and down fast is it supposed to do that or have I found another problem....

AFAIK, there is nothing controlling that flap other than the downward suction of the pistons on intake.  It is lightly balanced.  If it is shutting off rapidly, what is doing that? Backpressure?  The idle adjustment allen screw (3mm) only adjusts the resting position (idle) of that plate, which should be approx 3mm below closed.  The kJet control module manages everything else.... I think it takes sensor readings to adjust the fuel metering which is controlled by pressure (control pressure regulator).  This is different when the engine is cold, or warm.   Its all explained in the Part3 of that 'tasteslikepetrol' link above.

I extract the following:

If you rev the engine and let the RPM drop, it should drop straight to a nice idle. If it drops and rises back up again, or hunts at idle, the mixture is wrong; this is the system trying to compensate. You also need to get the idle speed right at this point too, as altering the idle speed will alter the mixture demand.

By slightly raising or lowering the sensor plate you can tell if it needs to be richer or leaner based on how the engine responds. A small turn of this screw, with a 3mm hex key, will do a big change. Left is Lean, Right is Rich, so turn the hex key counterclockwise to lean the mixture out. With a little playing, you should be able to note the point where between rich and lean the engine runs best. The idle speed will usually come up slightly, and it will run smooth. Tweak the idle speed down if needed and adjust again until its happy. Once you have it in the happy place, you should now note that if you bring the revs up and let them drop to idle it should settle straight into a nice idle.

But I think you need to solve the fuel delivery issue.  Even getting a 12volt supply to it so it is running continuous.

Also, locate and replace the Pump Control Relay (also called the electronic control relay)... seems to be a common failure thing and might solve that pump problem.  

 

 

 

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Ok point I am now at. New fillter,pump, accumulator,leads, dizzy cap and arm. So just splashed out on a new Mercedes fuel relay.

So still the same thing engine starts runs for 5-6 seconds then cuts out. What is happening is turn the key the pump primes cuts of wengine starts but the pump is not starting again.

There must be something that tells the realy the engine has started start the pump! What give the realy this pulse once started? This is where I'm lost to be honest it seems such a simple system but man it can push you to limits of frustration!!!

I have replaced earth wires because they diden't look the best. 

Jdring
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Re: Newbie

As Morecombe and Wise might say - it seems you are playing all the right notes, just maybe not in the right order!

At the limits of my suggestions.  But you have the new relay in.  And the pump still doesn't kick back in. So the assumption is fuel starvation causing engine to stop.   The idle control mixture (allen key) can be discounted because you get it running and once applying some throttle the idle mix doesn't matter.  Distributor and timing must be OK because it runs. So maybe its the ECU box that takes sensor inputs and presumably drives the Pump Relay and hence pump??

Otherwise.... Refering to the 'tasteslikepetrol' guide:

If all of that is working as it should, the car should run and respond fairly well. The biggest problem is when the fuel pressures are wrong. It only takes one wrong figure for the whole lot to fall over, and then its a case of tracking back and finding out where that pressure has gone. This is why people dislike KJet.

And the rest of the guide goes on to test pressure (cold, warm etc).  If that needs too much kit and hassle, I still think hard wire the pump to establish that with continuous fueling the engine won't stall.

Two other sources: This youtube guy is a guru and does a lot of videos about kJetronic.   https://www.youtube.com/user/schilleryu  (his english is painfully slow and a bit odd, but he is very good)

(Note there is a KE Jet and a KJet.  KE means Electronic module is present (ECU control).... I am assuming you have this type, as is mine '87 and '89 230GE )

THE KEJet ECU and Over Voltage Protection Relay is described here: https://youtu.be/uU1j_wcvLD0  (worth a listen)

This one is fuel pump relay: https://youtu.be/i45KMD13f2U  (jump to 9:30 to hard wire the pump without the relay)

This one is the Ignition Control Module: https://youtu.be/1UQjX83S8iA  (starts in German, but is English)

This is a general KEJetronic overview: https://youtu.be/4XeDlEjx5pc  (starts about 4:15)

Finally, I am not sure where the ECU box is, in the G, but if its broken...

 

tonyhayhighland
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Re: Newbie

Hi thanks for the info.

The ECU is in behind the glovebox.

This could be a long shot but when pushing in the fuel relay i noticed the wires are getting pushed out so with a wee screwdriver I can push the female ends back in. Does anyone no what color wire goes to the pin numbers on the relay.

Just thinking maybe the previous owner did this too and pushed the female end back onto the wrong holes.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks