G Driving in the Snow

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madferrit
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OK.. winter is on its way to the south this week.. or so the weatherman tells me!

I'm no expert when it comes to driving my G in these kind of conditions, and living on a hill and in a slightly remote part of London that the guys with the gritting machine always forget about. Soooo

Can any experienced G Drivers give advise what to do and not to do?!?!

ie.. best way to drive up hill.. waving to all those who are stuck in their 2 wheel drives?
Driving Down hill, ... using the locks.. if necessary.. and anything else that might be useful.

I don't want to be snowbound with a 4x4 this year!!

Madferrit!

Bill Moss
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Driving in snow

What G do you have?

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

Look at the author's profile. He's got a 1992 300 GE LWB

Bill Moss
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Driving in the snow

So he does J.

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

Yep, '92 J 300GEL

The other thing i would like to know, is there is a situation during this forthcoming weather where i might need the diff locks?

:)

Thanks in advance!

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

Madferrit:

I am not an expert on this at all but these are my ideas.

Based on what you say about road gritting, I assume that you are asking about iced roads.

Your car is permanent 4WD like mine so I would just drive in high-range and very smooooooooothly. 4WD should give you that little bit more of control.

Never accelerate or brake suddenly. If it is toooooo bad, lock the transfer box diff when braking but just for just enough to drive through the very, very slippery bit. This will make the ABS slightly actuation more difficult given that it will make both axles rotate solidly. Unlock the diff as soon as possible.

I wouldn't use the front or rear diff locks. What gives your car control and traction are the tyres, not the locks.
Any other opinions out there?

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

Jesus,

thanks!

I feel a little more prepared than last year.. and as i actually live in a fairly remote part of West London i might actually be brave and take the G out tomorrow night if the snow comes early.. just to see how it goes.

Another thing i noticed this evening is that my front tyres are wearing more than the rear (naturally). i'm thinking if it is wise to switch them over with the rear tomorrow morning so i don't end up in a mess.

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

Madferrit,

Something that strikes me as strange is that being your car permanent 4WD it looks to me that it should wear front and rear tyres equally.

Perhaps somebody out there can have an opinion on this?

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

The reason i said naturally was that the front wheels steer.. and so with wear and tear.. i would guess that the front tyres would wear quicker.

Just a guess.. but always open to opinion.

Madferrit!

Bill Moss
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Tyres

Front tyres have more lateral work to do than rears so may wear quicker depending on how driven.

The only addition I would make to Js excellent driving teqhnique is select a lowish gear & drive like you are trying NOT to break eggs loose on your seat.

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

madferrit wrote:
The reason i said naturally was that the front wheels steer.. and so with wear and tear.. i would guess that the front tyres would wear quicker.

Just a guess.. but always open to opinion.

Madferrit!

Yes, I completely agree in what you say. I just assumed by reading your posting that you meant that the front were wearing evenly more than the back and I thought that this could only be due to the torque being split more to the fron t axle than the rear (it that is at all possible)....

Russ280
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Snow

Can you switch off the ABS on a 463?

If yes do so.

I would doubt the need to lock the centre diff. and would try to avoid doing so anyway. Definately not the front. Only time you should resort to any of the above if it's VERY deep and or minimal traction AND going very slowly.

As Jesus says smooooooth. The G is heavy and if it does get away from you it will take some stopping! Worst case is if you loose all forward traction on a steep hill and you start sliding backwards. Resist the temtation to brake (the fronts will lock and you will rapidly loose control) try to get it in to reverse quickly.

Other than that snow is WAY more fun than mud!

Russ

PS. have some snow pic's but can not figure out how to post them. Ideas anyone?

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

2 inches! (of snow that is)

Ok.. we've had the snow the weatherman said.. and its about 2" deep. Its setlling quite well.

I've just had to take the G out (any excuse to drive!!) and found when returning home, driving down hill, the car would swerve left.

I'll be driving around 5mph, so its very slow and the swerving would occur when pressing the brake.. very gently. Like Russ said, i switched off the ABS and this helped a lot. Is there anything else i should be aware of and is this swerving normal?

As for the diffs.. i think i'll hold out.. till i get myself in a real tight spot. But, another question.. should the diffs only be applied when the vehicle is moving? From other peoples experiences.. what are the do's and dont's of using Diffs?

Many thanks, and apologies for being so inquisitive!

mark
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G Driving in the Snow

just remember that although your G is very capable of moving in snow/ice, you have no advantage when slowing, G's are very heavy for their size. When you sail past people in lesser motors, struggling to move on a particularly slippery bit, let that remind you of how difficult it will be for you to stop.. As a %,, 4x4's are involved in more accidents in this weather..
With the bit of snow with had at the moment in the London area, i'd leave abs activated, but resort to cadance breaking when abs can't deal with the situation..
The swerving to the left is most likely caused by the canver on the road, and locked wheels,, will happen in any vehicle..
You lucky G owners,, enjoy the snow.. I'll be stuck somewhere in my Sprinter :lol:

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

The only reason why I suggested to lock centre diff is to get both axles turning at the same speed so that if the wheels in one of them are both tempted to lock simultaneously they will be prevented by the other two, or otherwise all of them will lock!

I would almost never lock either the rear or the front diffs on the road because it looks to me that if grip is so poor that merits locking either of them then the road is so iced that a heavy thing like my G-Wagen would be utterly ungovernable without wheel-chains.

With regard to the actual moment of locking, you can always lock them at walking speed but always before the wheels are sliding at all. Otherwise the locking action would not only be made difficult greatly but you are also liable to cause great damage in the differential and locking mechanism.

I don't understand why disconneting the ABS would help you in a situation with poor grip such as ice or snow on the road. The ABS is there to prevent your car from locking wheels under braking in the first place and once you lock the car will slide with even worse violence than otherwise.

To me disconneting the ABS while driving on the road is a complete no-no. Proof of this is that MB engineers decided to remove the switch for disconnecting the ABS in post-1995 G-Wagens. This means basically that all 463 G's sold officially by MBUK have the switch.

mark
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G Driving in the Snow

Switchable ABS is no longer allowed by law, a very foolish bit of legislation. No doubt Mercs, Audis would all have switchable on and off ABS. There are some (very few) occassions where ABS is of no help what so ever, an icy road with a camber for instance. The on/ off of the breaks is to fast to keep traction, you may as well have a locked wheel.. Some also say you can pull up faster in deep snow with a locked wheel, then you can with an unlocked wheel.. That's a bit on the debatable side.. Still on the whole, i do agree,, keep ABS activated on the road..

mortinson
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G Driving in the Snow

mark wrote:
Switchable ABS is no longer allowed by law, a very foolish bit of legislation. No doubt Mercs, Audis would all have switchable on and off ABS.

I agree with that been dictated by the law, but not with the attribute you put to it, or else why then the only Mercedes ever fitted with the switch were the 463 G-Wagens from 1990 to 1995?

Let's remember that since the first Mercedes to be fitted with ABS in the late seventies until it became illegal, no other Mercedes apart from the G was ever fitted with the disconnetion switch. And the switch was offered in the first place because it was deemed that it was better to brake on loose gravel and other off-road driving conditions without ABS.

And don't tell me Audi knew better: for a start Mercedes INVENTED the ABS (in collaboration with Bosch, that is). As far as I know Audi was the only other manufacturer that offered the switch. Could it be because its Quattro models were to be used off the road as well?

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

I guess my experience was a little unique.. but with the comments made, i guess it would make sense to keep the ABS on at all times.

To get to my house i have to go down a very steep gradient, and had cars parked on both sides.. i guess my biggest worry was to slide into one of those cars.. and with the build of the G, i guess one of my neighbours might have thought that their prized possession had been crushed!

Perhaps i'll get away without a scratch on my car! :twisted:

Madferrit!

Rustbucket
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Snow and ice

I go with Russ on this one but adding the following for severe conditions on ungritted roads with inclines and bends, especially when the two are together : You should be driving in low ratio at the slowest speed in the lowest gear your patience can tolerate when going downhill ( this will still be too fast ). This avoids applying the brakes which would lock your wheels instantly as there is not enough friction on the tyres. Loosing the ability to steer is not the ideal situation when going downhill especially if there is a corner coming up. So, slow slow slow. This also gives you plenty time to think and plan ahead, if you do lose it then you won't hear as many expensive noises. Going up the same hill is a bit different. You want a steady speed ( momentum ) in the highest gear possible to try and avoid wheelspin ( easily said :) ) If there are other road users then I would stop well before the incline and let them do their thing ( don't be lulled into a false sense of security just because you have a G ) you'll get in a pickle too if you have to divert your course for something on the raod. Once they are out of the way then you can procede easier than if the road is spattered with vehicles. As russ says, try to avoid having to stop mid-hill as you could get yourself in a right old mess. Like most things in life, common sense is a big factor and no two people do anything the same way. So you'll just have to go out and put some of the theory into practice and develope your own methods and come back and tell us how to do it. Patience, correct speed and common sense, oh aye ! and a good set of tyres will see you alright. An old guy I used to work with would say " the man who never made a mistake, never made anything". Just make sure you learn from them and keep you and your vehicle from a trip to the Hospital. Have fun :D

Russ280
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ABS+SNOW

Switchable ABS…………legislation always has to deal with the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately we do have to share our roads with people who don’t have the mental capacity to walk and talk at the same time. Hopefully given what we choose to drive we don’t fall in to that category!!

I can assure you stopping distances ARE increased in fresh snow and to a lesser extent on compacted snow or ice. Not using electronic intervention does however require some practice / skill.

I guess we are talking about different environments though. Traffic always spoils the fun! Plus as someone else remarked don't fall in to the "I'm invincible" mindset. In some respects 4X4’s, due to their weight/centre of gravity etc.are more dangerous in tricky conditions than normal cars.

Russ

Maxwell Smart
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G Driving in the Snow

although yesterday was only my first day driving in the snow with my G, IMHO I think I can speak somewhat authoratively here since I am Canadian and grew up driving in the snow!!! Though of course i am by no means a driving instructor, yet alone an experienced 4x4 driver...

Common sense is the big thing here.
1) drive steady
2) do not acelerate or break unneccessarily
3) no abrupt movements
4) on highways when changing lanes, be very carefully of the ridge that forms between lanes, don't change if you don't have to. if you do need to change, change across very gradually mainting speed
5) try keeping both left and right wheels on similar surfaces
6) keep a large (and i mean large) distance between you and the car in front. if they swerve you need the room to stop on ice
7) even if the road looks dry be carefull if it is below 0 celsius. there is something called "Black Ice", that is ice that you can not readily see
8 ) drive steady ( in case you missed the first time) especially on ice
9) i see nothing wrong with using abs, unless you are very practised otherwise, you want turning wheels, not locked wheels on ice
10) slow yourself by carefully downshifting
11) be very very wary of other drivers making stupid moves.
12) finally practice turning, skidding, slipping in some empty parking lot it will teach you a lot

there was also a thread discussing this on benzworld, read the postings by Brent or Hipine
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=177066&posts=13

Martin @ Baku
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G Driving in the Snow

Hear hear!!!!

You couldn't have said it better Maxwell, I totally agree, I live in a place where it gets to +40c in the summer and -20c in the winter, so icey surfaces and snow is a common thing here. DO NOT SWITCH OFF THE ABS under no circumstances. I have tried and failed.
I have also found that locking any diff(even just the centre one), has made no difference at all. The only difference it made, was switch off my ABS(which it does on a 463), what I did not like :shock:
this topic is certainly bringing in the good advice, keep it coming!!

Martin.

Russ280
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G Driving in the Snow

This is all good stuff, certainly what this forum should be all about. Some good discussions and hopefully all of us picking up some knowledge along the way.

I will concede my initial advice, given the context of the original question, should have read something like. Get some practice in a safe environment and see what happens when you switch off the ABS.

Trying things out on a public road with others around…….not good!

For the record my other car is an Audi with switchable ABS. Under certain conditions I have proved to myself ABS can be a hindrance. Very specific conditions. It’s been switched out on maybe 2 or 3 occasions for a matter of minutes.

Went out in the snow for a ‘play’ this morning, managed to park the G in a ditch…so what do I know!?

Russ

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Snow G

We have had 3/ 4ft snow drifts here in St Margarets today. Unfortunately its one of those villages where everyone knows everyone and I have had 4 people knock on my door for assistance with being pulled out of snow or up a hill including one Discovery, that got into trouble trying to pull an Alpha Romeo out of a 4ft drift "that felt good"
It was my first experience in snow in a part time 4x4 and i have learned a little bit more. Mostly that 4wd needs to be shifted in and out to stopp it winding up the axle even in slippery snow. I was impressed with what it could do though. Gerty needs a good jetwashing now though. she is clogged

Maxwell Smart
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Re: Snow

Russ280 wrote:
PS. have some snow pic's but can not figure out how to post them. Ideas anyone?

Russ, since we are still trialing this site, you currently need to have the pics on the web somewhere and link to them. If you don't have any space to post them then email them to me and I will arrange something.

However once you have them up, here is how you post:

<br />

Greeney wrote:
We have had 3/ 4ft snow drifts here in St Margarets today....

sounds like lots of potential fun..... :D

Rustbucket
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G Driving in the Snow

Maxwell Smart wrote:
I am Canadian and grew up driving in the snow!!!
Strangely enough when I was posting my reply I was going to say " Are there no Canadian G owners out there as really here in the U.K. we don't get enough snow to become experts ". Glad to hear all you folks down south are getting plenty snow. We've hardly had any at all ( Lothians ). Makes a change. :)

Maxwell Smart
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G Driving in the Snow

Rustbucket wrote:
Glad to hear all you folks down south are getting plenty snow. We've hardly had any at all ( Lothians ). Makes a change. :)

Don't quite know that you would call it lots, except maybe farther down south where Greeney is. I drove from Stoke on Trent to London moments after/during the snowfall and there couldn't of been much more than 2-3 inches on the ground.

Though in a country where people don't have winter tires, yet alone 4 seasons it was amusing (if not frustrating) to watch the utter havoc it wreaked. A trip that should of taken me 1.5 hours took 7 hours with the majority of the trip at 15mph. This much snow probably would of slowed the trip to 2-2.5 hours in Canada. I even saw 18 wheelers at a standstill, wheels spinning on ice, a sight I have never seen before since their weight normally gets them through anything.

I would hate to see what a prolonged or larger storm would do to this country. I saw one tiny truck the entire journey trying to sand a 3 lane highway with the outer two barely receving anything.

Incidentally, the majority of the cars I saw spin out was not during the big traffic volumes where everyone was crawling, but rather in the areas where the roads looked clear of traffic and snow and people assumed they could drive as normal, forgetting about "black ice".

Russ280
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G Driving in the Snow

[Maxwell Smart Wrote]Russ, since we are still trialing this site, you currently need to have the pics on the web somewhere and link to them. If you don't have any space to post them then email them to me and I will arrange something.

Um, too hard Maxwell. I work with computers all day but don't have the patience to figure that out! Will e-mail a few. Nothing too spectacular and I will not inflict the LR and Toyota ones on you!

I know it’s big kid’s stuff but snow when there is no one else around is so much fun. When you have to mix it with others it’s just plain scary though!

Russ

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G Wagen + Snow Pic's

Some big kid's pic's + an arty one (No3). Thanks for sorting the techy stuff Maxwell.
Russ




Rustbucket
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G Driving in the Snow

Maxwell Smart wrote:
Incidentally, the majority of the cars I saw spin out was not during the big traffic volumes where everyone was crawling, but rather in the areas where the roads looked clear of traffic and snow and people assumed they could drive as normal, forgetting about "black ice".
Welcome to the U.K Maxwell, happens year in, year out. Proves my point re correct speed and common sense.

Rustbucket
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Russ in the snaw

Nice photo's Russ. I like No.4. How long were you stuck :lol: You'll need to explain the arty one I'm afraid! :?

Russ280
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G Driving in the Snow

Stuck!? Have faith!
Didn't even use the rear diff. lock. Seriously on that one it was deep but powdery, in places the drifts were even deeper and the only worry was ripping off the plastic wheel arches.
It was wet and frozen today so did come a cropper. Only just managed to get out with both diffs. Locked.
Re. No 3………..heathen! But then I am an engineer so even if I thought it was, who knows.

Russ

madferrit
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G Driving in the Snow

I think i'm definately living in the wrong part of the country! :roll:

John
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G Driving in the Snow

Perhaps I've missed it, but I dont see anyone saying that in snow you must drive a 4x4 and not 'brake' except when absolutely necessary. By keeping speed moderately low you shouldn't need to do emergency stops and when you meet corners you keep the power on and drive them round so the front axle is pulling the car round. As long as you keep your momentum it highly unlikely you'll get stuck.

Same applies in real slippery mud - I avoid using difflocks as it causes two wheels to spin when cornering. When things are really dodgy it isnt a good idea to do anything which could cause it to dig in.

Mines a 460, and the only place I've used diff locks is on the steep but straight section of road up to my house when it was covered in snow. I was the only car to go up that road (three times) before the road was cleared (or so the workmen at the bottom said).

The only question I've got about the 460 is does the SA second position engage a centre difflock - I put mine in this position and still had rear wheel spin whilst the front was gripping, that shouldn't be possible if the power split is 50/50 front to rear? Experts explain please. There's nothing in the manual about it, but I've seen you guys talking on this site.

Maxwell Smart
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G Driving in the Snow

John wrote:
Perhaps I've missed it, but I dont see anyone saying that in snow you must drive a 4x4 and not 'brake' except when absolutely necessary.

Yup I think you did miss it, but I wouldn't say that you have to drive a 4x4. Done decades of driving successfully in snow and ice with only 1 set of drive wheels. (Is that a 4x2 or a 2x4...) You are right about the front wheels pulling through. I find that front wheel drives are much easier to handle than rear wheel drives. Also having the weight of the engine on the "driving" wheels helps alot. I have yet to try a rear engine and rear wheel drive combination.

But I think the issue isn't so much with getting stuck (you can always sand, dig, push your way out) but rather not slipping sideways out of control.

Good tires help enormously. We used to have two sets of wheels: one for summer, spring and fall and a second set for winter. In Canada it is illegal to use chains on public roads.

Rustbucket
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G Driving in the Snow

Maxwell Smart wrote:
Good tires help enormously. We used to have two sets of wheels: one for summer, spring and fall and a second set for winter.
I put the original steel wheels and "skinny" tyres on in the winter for better grip in the snow. The wide tyres are pretty useless in snow as they tend to sit on it rather than bite in.

Russ280
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John,
A 460 does not have a centre diff. lock. Placing it in SA does as you state, mechanicaly locks front and rear axles.
Engage SA and you now have 2 wheel drive rather than 1 wheel drive (front and rear diffs. take care of that).
So if the rear(s) were spinning 1 or both of the fronts must have been spinning.

Totally agree with your comment re. braking and use of diff. locks. Only to be used at very slow speed, especially the front.

mortinson
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Interesting posting in BenzWorld forum.......

from somebody rather more familiar with snow driving than most of us...

Author Posted 2/19/2004 9:35 AM (#1192464 - in reply to #1192413)

Tjærand

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Vehicle: 1988 300 GD STT LWB
Registered: 8/13/2002
Location: Tønsberg, Norway
Posts: 395

RE: Snow Driving

I live in Norway, and if the weather gods are in a particularily bad mood, we get 4 months of snow.

As you have a 463, you have fulltime 4x4, and thats a plus regarding braking and ABS.
A few things to remember driving in loose or deep snow;

Choose your path wisely when crossing deep snow drifts and dont stop unless you really have to. With a minimum amount of speed, you will float, but you will very easily dig down and hang on the frame if you start a bit roughly.

Reduce tire pressure. How much depends on how deep and loose the snow is. Buy a decent 12V compressor if youre going far from gas stations.

Down hill, or on ice... don't brake. If you brake, you'll be driving a rampaging 2,5 ton sleigh. Lowest possible gear, no throttle, and nimble your way down. If you still feel a slight slip, give it a hint of throttle. Do not engage lockers while driving down as you will probably slide off sideways.

Lockers can help you up hill, but then you will have to be very gentle on the throttle.

Keep a good distance to any other cars, trees or other obstacles. Driving in snow is like driving a boat, it will bob sideways depending on the surface beneath the snow.

Bring a tow rope, lightweight showels and boots ;-)