500bhp w124 with 606 turbo
On e-bay, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331229298925?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D331229298925%26_rdc%3D1&clk_rvr_id=648214832596
it looks a neat installation, but I'm no expert on this
Fascinating. If it is what it is and does what it says on the tin, then that seems to be very well priced.
However; and here the devil fuel/turbo folks can help. Can an 3 litre OM606 really pump out a usable 508 bhp?
That's getting on for a hundred bhp more than my AMG tuned 6 litre M119 engine! If it is the case, I might start reconsidering my views on devil fuel!
... of course it is useable, he fitted a different gearbox and clutch. And by the way, the Tooth Fairy does exist.
OOOOOOOOOOOOh aren't petrols great!!!
Looks a lot of fun.
And by the way, the Tooth Fairy does exist.
Of course I knew that.....
Fascinating. If it is what it is and does what it says on the tin, then that seems to be very well priced.
However; and here the devil fuel/turbo folks can help. Can an 3 litre OM606 really pump out a usable 508 bhp?
That's getting on for a hundred bhp more than my AMG tuned 6 litre M119 engine! If it is the case, I might start reconsidering my views on devil fuel!
Yes it can - Starting wihth a 606A you can go more more (say 600) with relatively minor further modifications (uprated valve springs, more boost, more fueling).
Beyond that, uprated rods, modifications to precombustion chamber and (ultimately) nitrous can go further. Failure is usually cracking of the the crank bearing block - they are tough engines.
'Usability' is the key issue - with lots of boost and huge lag you can get to these figures. That's fine for drift racing (BlackSmoke racing in Finland are the well known guys using the 606)
I'm currently building a race-engine around a 606, shooting for 350-400 WHP on my 460. The key for me is not HP but torque and more precisely the torque curve (torque being a better way to define ability to get power down and overcome inertia).
They key to this is around optimising fueling and air delivery which means a combination of ported head, custom cams, racing intake plenum, split turbo manifold and a turbo that is can deliver the boost without being so big it lags horribly.
Its easier (though not easy) to do this at a lower range of power output than a higher. Hence (for my purposes anyway) 400WHP (c. 800Nm) was preferable to 500 if it meant it could be delivered in a better way.
If you are interested you can some of my build pics here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/benstoneham/sets/72157635345602082/
So my feeling with this one is that this 600HP (is that wheel or crank?) will involve some significant compromises that most drivers wouldn't want to put up with on a daily driver.
I also think that without modified internals reliability is a question at that level or power (for example, he doesn't mention valve springs but 6200RPM sounds very high for a standard spring set - I'd worry about float).
The point being that most of the power can be got from just more fuel and a bigger turbo and that can work for a while. Is that good enough for you? maybe if its a fun track car.. maybe not a daily driver.
I wonder who did his pump. 600HP means 7 or 8mm plungers and AFAIK only DieselMeken or Myna in Finland have those custom made for the 603 IP.
However a modified pump by either of them runs to about 2000 Euros so this seems too cheap to be theirs. If it is, then its probably worth buying just for the pump and engine...
Comprehensive. One might want to add that Audi chooses to run the 3.7 litre diesel engines in their Le Mans winning cars at about 550 bhp.
So what useable bhp do the devil fuel turbo kings on here pump out of their conversations? I'm beginning to get interested.
About 200. 0-60 10.5 seconds. The motorways no
longer have any hills!!! And It's really smooth if you just want to pootle
Trip to Donegal last the other week yielded 25.7 mph
About 200. 0-60 10.5 seconds. The motorways no
longer have any hills!!! And It's really smooth if you just want to pootle
Trip to Donegal last the other week yielded 25.7 mph
Presumably that's single turbo. I know zip about devil's fuel set ups, do they do twin t's and if so, is there more power? I ask as an M103 TT'd brings it up to pretty much the same as the M119 in terms of output.
To consider 'usable BHP' you actually need to consider both the horsepower curve and torque curve together because HP alone is simply a measure of ability to do work at a given RPM.
Imagine a pedal car - you could work hard to accelerate away. The stronger your legs, the shorter the time you can deliver variation in power over and the quicker you accelerate. This is a function of the torque you are able to apply (plotting the delivery power over time).
At the point at which you are pedaling as fast as you can, the power you are delivering at that point (or the power you are consistently delivering over any period) is your ability to do work; it says nothing about how fast you got there (and it is the 'force' of torque that delivers acceleration).
Some figures for comparison then.
- A Porsche 911 GTS runs to about 400 BHP, 420Nm of torque. 0-60 4.4 seconds. Its a pretty fast car (Ferrari 355 similar), though not supercar territory (3s and under), or F1 (around 1.5).
- A regular OM606A runs about 170hp, say 270 Nm of torque, 0-60 in a LWB G in, I'd guess what, 12 seconds? (Fuel @ around 30MPG)
- A G55AMG Kompressor (since I saw such a nice one at Axel's yesterday, let's use it!) has a V8 about 500hp ,700Nm and 0-60 time of 5.4s
- My engine should make around 400BHP and 700 Nm @ 2800RPM. Depending on final gearing (which is important in a diesel because the power delivery curve is over a shorter range; I'd be disappointed if we didn't get down to below a theoretical 5s, though manual gearshift will be the limitation. Fuel economy - if you have to ask... you don't want to know. maybe 12MPG?
- A slightly 'tweaked' 606 (bigger turbo, bigger plungers) should make 325 HP / 450 Nm and would probably get you sub 8 s in a LWB (guestimate!). Fuel - 20MPG?
Do you mean serial, or parallel? Twin can be done, but complicated. Can improve power delivery curve (spool up time on smaller)., but you need increased fuel and more boost - that is the secret to making more power in a diesel.
However, unless you have the skills, facilities, time (and commitment to to a lot of development work) then I'd stay away.
Alternatives are Supercharge/ Turbo combination or VNT - both complex too. 1st is mechanically complex the second electronically.
What you have to factor is the cost/ grief/ reliability/ performance you want equation. As they say.. you can choose any 2!
Thanks for that, 325 HP / 450 Nm sounds like a reasonable compromise although not quite what a TT'd M103 will deliver, allegedly.
If I don't have my TT installed I may go done that route. I just need to get more power.
I don't know much at all about boosting MB gas engines (The M103 was never available turbocharged I think?), however there are internal differences between the NA and A diesel versions that have resulted in problems for 'bolt-on' after-market conversion kits. The aftermarket kits that used to be sold for the 617 for example typically worked for 10-15K miles before something broke badly (lack of oil squinters to cool pistons being a principle suspect).
As I say, I don't know how/ if that applies in the same way to the gas engines. A bolt on to a103 that you already have in the vehicle will be cheaper (I reckon the minimum you could do the 350HP 606 for is about 3.5K for the engine (all s/h parts, proper pump, custom manifold, hacked/ rewelded sump) + Whatever for the fitting/ conversion.
The 606 will be indestructable and sound better!
One other thing to think about - 450Nm at the engine will be multiplied at the gearbox. Not sure what G you have, but the 460s use the VG080 box which is rated to 800Nm (will take more but is not as robust as the later VG150 which is rated at 1500). Depending what your gearing is, it should take it OK, but you haven't got tons of headroom
I don't know much at all about boosting MB gas engines (The M103 was never available turbocharged I think?), however there are internal differences between the NA and A diesel versions that have resulted in problems for 'bolt-on' after-market conversion kits. The aftermarket kits that used to be sold for the 617 for example typically worked for 10-15K miles before something broke badly (lack of oil squinters to cool pistons being a principle suspect).
As I say, I don't know how/ if that applies in the same way to the gas engines. A bolt on to a103 that you already have in the vehicle will be cheaper (I reckon the minimum you could do the 350HP 606 for is about 3.5K for the engine (all s/h parts, proper pump, custom manifold, hacked/ rewelded sump) + Whatever for the fitting/ conversion.
The 606 will be indestructable and sound better!
One other thing to think about - 450Nm at the engine will be multiplied at the gearbox. Not sure what G you have, but the 460s use the VG080 box which is rated to 800Nm (will take more but is not as robust as the later VG150 which is rated at 1500). Depending what your gearing is, it should take it OK, but you haven't got tons of headroom
At 3.5K plus fitting (which I can't imagine would be seriously less) that makes for a fairly heavy investment 
To do it properly at least that, likely more.
Obviously whether that is good value depends on your view of the world.
As they say, you can as fast as your pockets are deep.. how fast do you want to go ? :)
To do it properly at least that, likely more.
Obviously whether that is good value depends on your view of the world.
As they say, you can as fast as your pockets are deep.. how fast do you want to go ? :)
Fast I can go in my SL or GS.......fast I cannot go in my G. No idea what the 0-60 is in the G, but it feels like 3 days
Seriously though it seems to me that there are three options.
1. TT my 103
2. Get a V8 G
3. Get a turbo'd devil-fuel Wagen
I think a conversion at 7 or 8 big ones would not be a sensible way to go.
forget 1, it will be trouble; on Autotrader: 2006 RHD G55, 29k miles asking 49.5k.
About 200. 0-60 10.5 seconds. The motorways no
longer have any hills!!! And It's really smooth if you just want to pootle
Trip to Donegal last the other week yielded 25.7 mph
Presumably that's single turbo. I know zip about devil's fuel set ups, do they do twin t's and if so, is there more power? I ask as an M103 TT'd brings it up to pretty much the same as the M119 in terms of output.
Funny you should ask about Bi-Turbos this arrived today, it will be going on to an OM605 2.5Ltr C Class in a SWB if it all works, I'll try a BMW 535 unit which is larger on a 606 6 cyl. I'm not really looking for top end power but a flatter power curve and better boost lower down the rev range.
Watch this space
forget 1, it will be trouble
Tell me more. Hughes Twin Turbo was a well known and well tried MB set up. With MB's co-operation and blessing iiirc.
in the world of the 70mph speed limit it might work (the turbo gets hardly any use) but not beyond as a turbo-engine is a very different animal to a conventional engine; a turbo-lag without electronic stabilization is problematic, there is no hope once a 2.5t G points into the wrong direction.
in the world of the 70mph speed limit it might work (the turbo gets hardly any use) but not beyond as a turbo-engine is a very different animal to a conventional engine; a turbo-lag without electronic stabilization is problematic, there is no hope once a 2.5t G points into the wrong direction.
I had understood that there was less lag with a twin turbo set up. Did I get that wrong? Also, why do you think it would not have electronic stabilization?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODdQ3BUptO4&app=desktop you tube footage of the w124 estate om606a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ2PyhirAM&app=desktop dirty filthy thing but quick
The Turbo Technics conversions promise similar fuel consumption to a standard car only difference being that the tt required a higher octane fuel, so 18/19 for a auto ge300. The suggested engine modifications are lowering the engine compression something that is fairly low in standard trim. My concern and it applies equally to any substantially modified G-wagen is are the brakes up to it.
Yes, lowering compression, mechanically would be ideal. It's not a complicated job if only I could get the exact specs. I would be a very happy bunny. That said, I've been in touch with a specialist in the USA who's pointed me in an acceptable alternative (ECU)direction. He's done it, it works. (approx £300 iirc)
Initially I had the same concerns on the brakes front. That was until (third time lucky) I had my brakes completely overhauled, new shoes, new pads, new braided pipes etc. Since then the brakes have been great. I'm now pretty confident that they would suffice.
Just occurred to me, would a TT'd engine run on LPG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODdQ3BUptO4&app=desktop you tube footage of the w124 estate om606a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ2PyhirAM&app=desktop dirty filthy thing but quick
That's the one for sale isn't it, the one in the first post.
Depends - 2 big turbos in parallel will move a lot of air at a high boost pressure, big power but still lag. 2 small turbos means fast spin up but not much/ any more power. 2 in series (small, large) is, in theory the way to do less lag but complex engineering and really not worth it unless ts your hobby (serious hobby) and you have the facilities to do it.
The best (proven) solutions for low lag, high power 606 are either :L
1. Supercharge>Turbo
Not one feeding other as above, but valve that switches from Supercharger to Turbo. Still huge amounts of engineering. Eaton M90 is the preferred choice.
or..
2. VNT - Holset HE351V (this is what I suspect the poster is refering to above)
Variable vane turbos allow a large turbo to spin up at lower rpms by varying the pitch of the exducer.
Requires electronics to do properly (all kinds of heath-robinson vacuum gate bodges that don't work properly have been tried) - ideally taking account of rpm/ throttle position.
Quite doable if you know your way around programming an auduino chip, otherwise not for beginners. There is a off-the-shelf controller about (or already) out - about $2K, don't know how good it is. Expect to pay £2K for the turbo though.
The place to read about all this stuff is superturbodiesel.com Use their search facility and you'll learn a lot (also here - this has been covered quite recently), ask questions once you've done that and people will be very helpful in my experience :)
The question about brakes is a non -issue.
The standard disc/ drum setup on a 460/61/63 when properly adjusted perform extremely well - there would be little to gain by fitting anything more capable.
You can say 'what above overheating? but how much more aggressively do you think you are going to drive? Accelerate a lot more - yes, maybe experience higher wear because you will be going into a corner faster and scrub off more speed, more often.
But if you are slowing down from 70 you are slowing down from 70. It doesn't matter how fast you got there.
...and since you are probably not racing it, overheating etc is unlikely to ever be an issue that would warrant something exotic to deal with that.
I don't mean to be rude, but never get it - why people buy a 30 yr old, 2.5T vehicle and then worry about fuel economy :D
You bought a vehicle that weighs a lot and has the drag coefficient of a brick. That's fine. Drive it as it is, accept the performance as it is and buy a porsche for going fast in.
So you don't like porsche and you wanna go fast in a G? that's going to cost you money.. You want to be reliable too? that's going to cost more money. You want it to be economical? You need a McLaren P1 (and a whole lot more money!)
rant over!
rant over!
Back on form then Ben 
I don't mean to be rude, but never get it - why people buy a 30 yr old, 2.5T vehicle and then worry about fuel economy :D
You bought a vehicle that weighs a lot and has the drag coefficient of a brick. That's fine. Drive it as it is, accept the performance as it is and buy a porsche for going fast in.
So you don't like porsche and you wanna go fast in a G? that's going to cost you money.. You want to be reliable too? that's going to cost more money. You want it to be economical? You need a McLaren P1 (and a whole lot more money!)
Who said anything about fuel economy? Not me. My other two cars are 6 litre and 4.3 litre. Three of my other cars were 5 litre V8's. I couldn't actually tell you what the mpg is for any of my cars.
To be fair you didn't that's true - it was the mention of LPG that got me onto the subject! Good call on the other vehicles though - what are they ?
I don't mean to be rude, but never get it - why people buy a 30 yr old, 2.5T vehicle and then worry about fuel economy :D
You bought a vehicle that weighs a lot and has the drag coefficient of a brick. That's fine. Drive it as it is, accept the performance as it is and buy a porsche for going fast in.
So you don't like porsche and you wanna go fast in a G? that's going to cost you money.. You want to be reliable too? that's going to cost more money. You want it to be economical? You need a McLaren P1 (and a whole lot more money!)
spot on, not a rant at all; Ian wants a G500/ G55; but he appears to be willing to spend some money beforehand on a "project"; [and why would a P1 be economical? that might in relative terms apply to the before-mentioned GTS];
To be fair you didn't that's true - it was the mention of LPG that got me onto the subject! Good call on the other vehicles though - what are they ?
You are forgiven on account of all the interesting stuff you posted
I mentioned LPG in passing as my G already has a very good system in place. If it works with Turbo then fine and good, if not it'll be sold. If I was starting again with G's it would be with a V8.
"Problem" is that my G has had a lot of work done to make it mechanically sound, also the body work is very good. With a wee bit of internal cosmetic work and a power boost, it would be terrific.
Current guzzlers are an SL60 and a GS430. Past V8's have included ML, SE, SL & CLK. A few V6's too, but they don't count!
yes I think it is
LOL, it read a bit like a rant when I re-read it.. If I'd been saying it out loud to you, I would have had a grin on my face ;-)
I honestly have no idea how well the LPG would work.. others here will have a view I guess.
Ian - stop messing about and get a V8! LPG will lose space in the back
Spider1V
Ian - stop messing about and get a V8! LPG will lose space in the back
Spider1V
My G came to me with the LPG (although I had to fix it). I very nearly bought an RHD SWB V8 a while back, in the end I didn't and someone else here bought it. I had a lucky escape on that one I think.
Trouble is mine is in real good nick with all the work that's been done and also it's pretty well rust free. Not bad a a 91'er
Not many RHD SWB V8's come up for sale, and I'm concerned that if I do take the plunge it'll end up taking a lot more time and money to get it to the condition mine is in.
Without a doubt my G has had/needed more work on it than any other vehicle I've ever owned. The running costs of my SL are minuscule by comparison .
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The Turbo Technics conversions promise similar fuel consumption to a standard car only difference being that the tt required a higher octane fuel, so 18/19 for a auto ge300. The suggested engine modifications are lowering the engine compression something that is fairly low in standard trim. My concern and it applies equally to any substantially modified G-wagen is are the brakes up to it.