270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

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astrisjuls
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Does anyone know of typical problems concerning a can-bus problem related to the gearbox on a 06 270cdi? Really appreciate any help with this :)

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with this car.

These gearboxes have a known problem with the electrical wiring, whereby pressurised transmission oil flows though the cable sheath of the electrical cable that connects the valve pack to the control unit and ends up damaging the control unit.

If you have checked the above and have determined that you have a CANbus problem, have you been able to check the actual CANbus wiring? It's a twisted, 2-wire system with some sections using earth screening. It should be possible to check the CAN-bus wiring from end-to-end. The modules at the start and end of the bus should have termination resistors, for the bus to function, so check that all modules on the powertrain CANbus are properly connected.

In the old days there was just a vacuum line from engine to auto gearbox. There's something to be said for old technology.

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Thank you! 

This is really the area we work around. I had an issue were the battery run flat, and when the battery gives low voltage that might break some of the resistors or the modules. I Was just wondering if it Was something about it that Was a typical fault? 

 

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

here is a link to the connector leak fault, which is typical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvwxeCy8xRQ

If the above is not your problem, you need to find a wiring diagram from the Workshop Instruction Sheets and check the CANbus wiring from end to end.

The ends of the CANbus line need to be terminated with an appropriate resistor for the line impedance, to prevent reflection of signals. These terminating resistors are normally built into the modules. first check the wiring to ensure that you have no broken wires.

some info here:

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=129838

http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm

 

 

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Note that a CANbus fault related to the transfer-case is quite common on the G and is just spurious and doesn't mean anything (I have those regularly on my G400). The electric control of the transfer case was a bad design, but it's not related to the gearbox. If you can communicate with the gearbox control unit through diagnostics, then the CANbus is working. if your issue is the gearbox going into 'limp-mode' then check the switches on the gear-selector lever, try to use Manual gear selection and see whether the gears are displayed correctly in the instrument binnacle.  Sometimes the switches on the gear-selector fail and then the gearbox enters 'limp mode' breause it does not know what gear has been selected. This was a fairly  common occurrence on some BMWs with the same ZF gearbox.

 

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Also, are you sure that this is a gearbox issue and not an engine issue. check the condition of your air mass flow sensor and also the EGR. These are apparently other common cause on the 270 CDi.

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Once again, thank you! This might be things that can solve the issue we have been trying to fix for months.. I guess my mechanic know about the resistors, but still, there might be something related to the connections, or as you say resistors on the module, or right outside it. The wiring is ok, they say.

It is not oil in the leads, that should be ok. 

But the switches on the gear selector level, are they part of the can-bus? I will take a trip and see if the manual selection works well, but i have never seen the particular gear-number it has been selected to.. only D. I guess that is common? Or do you mean P, R and D?

I had the transfer box-lamp once this summer, after it stood still for a couple of weeks. But they deleted the fault, and it has not come back. As far as i know, the can-bus is related to the gearbox and not transfer box. Hopefully they are not looking at the wrong place? :)

For the High and Low issue regarding the link about the two can-bus lines. They say that the H and L are both working. So that means that both lines are ok. Well, or at least they are both living in a way..

 

But my big question is to understand if the problem is related only to can-fault on the gear box, if that is what comes up in the diagnostics. Because, then we do not have to worry or look for any other thing. I mean valves on the conductor plate, egr and air mass flow and so on.

 

And on more thing, when the gear box goes "into limp home mode" on the highway, it is like driving with a clutch half way down. So one can drive for 50 km almost without problem. Some say it does not affect anything on the car, and will not harm any part, but my concern is that the engine often goes from 70-75 to 80-85c. And does the gearbox get the right oil pressure when it is in "limp home mode"?

 

 

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

I am also a bit curious about the transfer case shifter motor, since it often is mentioned together with a module connected to the gear box. 

A 4635400088

http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&prod...

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

If you move the gear-selector lever to D and then tip it  left and right it will shift up and down manually. The actual gear should be displayed in the dash, instead of D it will show 1,2,3,4 or 5.  The switch mechanism is either in the lever assembly or in the gearbox. If the gear display works correctly, then this will not be the problem

The H & L issue on the transfer case is a common problem. The display sometime shows a blank when the system does not know if the transfer case is in H, L or N. It's a problem with the electric shifter and its sensor. Keeping the H-L button pressed will force the system in to either H or L and reset the display. It is not related to your gearbox trouble.

I was trying to understand whether your 'limp-mode' fault is related to the gearbox or the engine. What is the actual warning display on the dash, when the problem occurs?

If you can diagnose the gearbox with a STAR tester on the OBD/diagnostics port, then your CANbus will be all right. The problem will not be that. Have you managed to read any fault codes from the grearbox?

 

 

 

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Good morning. 

I had a go last night to do the things i have not thought about before. The manual says 1-4 and then on top goes into H and not 5. But i guess that is ok. It uses some time to gear though. maybe 1-1,5 sec from level shift to gear shift. 

The transfer case is also ok, it seems. It goes into L and H without any problems. That is from N, but it has to be in N to change as i have understood. Sorry for not knowing all this, but sadly enough it is because i have not driven my car much since i got it in january. 

It is no warning in the display anymore. It started with the epc lamp when kick-down earlier this summer, but they changed some sensor on the pedal. So that does not seem to be a problem anymore. I had the "TC fault, go to workshop" once this summer, but the took away the fault by diagnostic tool, and it has not come back. 

I have had the car to two workshops, and both says it is related to can/bus fault on gearbox. So i guess they cannot communicate with it at all..

I am quite sure about your tip on resistors situated inside or right outside the modules, and that one of them are not working anymore because of low voltage and battery problem over 3-4 weeks in april. Hopefully this is it. I guess we will try this. And once more check wiring, connections and earth.  

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Still nothing new here. They had this tool to see what happens when the car goes into limp home mode, connected to the can/bus. But they found nothing particular. So they thoguht it was unlikely it is can/bus wiring problem. 

Conductor plate and valve housing has been changed. And the module underneath the gear box lever has also been changed. He cleaned the old gear box lever module, and then the car went nuts. So they changed it and it worked for two days, and the fault came back. They say they get a message on the diagnostic system that says "values unbelievable" or "most unlikely", between the gear lever box module and the gearbox itself. That is the last thing i`ve heard.  

Arnie
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Sorry to hear that your troubles persist.

Please could you clarify who is doing this work for you?

I think that if you continue to change parts at random, it will end up being a costly exercise. CAN bus errors may not be relevant. The gearboxes are complex and contain may sensors, any one of which could give issues.Are you able to run diagnostics on the gearbox, can you see that the shaft-speed sensors are working?... and that the gear selector lever position is being registered correctly?   if you wish to check the CAN bus, you will need a wiring diagram. Then, disconnect all the power-train control-unit connectors (engine ECU, gearbox, transfer-case, braking system etc and check the CAN bus continuity from end to end, at all the connectors. It's a 2-wire system. The fault can actually reside with any module on the power-train bus, as well as with the wiring itself, if there is an interruption to the bus, or one of the modules is corrupting the communications. The gearbox communicates with the engine and braking system and it may go into limp-mode if it does not receive the correct communications. What diagnostic codes do you have so far, if any?

As you have had some intermittent success after changing the gearbox selector lever switches, start by carefully checking the wiring on these. I don't know the particular case with this model of gearbox, but in many cases, the selector-lever switch data is transmitted on CAN-bus.

If the vehicle has a full MB service history (I don't know if it has?), then you may find MB willing to take the case on, as good-will, to get to the bottom if this problem.

 

 

 

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.
Hi! BOS in Norway are doing the work. They are the biggest company when it comes to Mercedes in Norway, and their workshop is huge with every type of tool. Still, i think the are new-school, not old-school. They work by diagnostics, not so much by experience. At least, that`s my guess. I have been told that they cannot find any fault with the wiring. That was done 3 months ago maybe. I think all the modules and control units have been changed. At least changed forth and back from a car that is working. In that way i have not been charged for all the parts. They do charge every part that get their sealing broken, you see.. My experience is that when the car goes into limp home mode, it does so almost all the time. But when a part is changed and all the errors are deleted with diagnostic tool. The car runs fine maybe 1-2 days. The gear selector lever and the wiring around should be ok. And i know that this part has been looked at right before christmas. I get told that things have this certain kind of problem, and that a certain part will not communicate with an other part. So we change that part, but nothing happens. It`s like i`m in the middle and people keep throwing a ball over my head back and forth. I never really get to know the real problem, since everything i read about and try to understand, really does not matter, because it is never the fault that they tell me it is. My car has always been to BOS, and has full history. And in the end i do not really care about the money, i just want the car fixed. But it is not days or weeks, it`s months. I will try to get the codes for the errors, so i can display them here. One other thing that might be strange is that it all started with and epc fault. But this lamp has not been lit for months. The car also had a thermostat not working, and both water pumps was defect aswell. One pump was changed last summer, and the other one and thermostat was changed in november i guess.
bigblock
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Sorry to hear about all your troubles, it must be very frustrating.

I would like to buy one of the latest diesel G Wagons with a view to keeping it for the next twenty years like my last one.However with modern electrics creating the type of problems you have I don't know if that is possible anymore.

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

That was my plan, too! But what keeps me in there still is that there is sunshine on the other side and that this problem is just one small f..cker that makes the rest of the car look like crap! I have faith. Still.

g wagon g
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

I know this is nothing perhaps to do with the issue


Had a 27crd jeep cherokee with the merc engine and gearbox control.


Kept going into limp mode and gearbox would not work properly. Plugged it in but no faults only a fault code that could be many things


What sorted it was a camshaft position sensor on the front of the engine. I thought i would try it as i have had a similar issue on mercedes ml 270s


I thought i would try a cheap pattern part and it worked fine since. I did try the old one again and it was ok for about 20 miles and it did the same again. Re fitted the 17 pounds cheapo one and all was fine for 2 years on. Then i scrapped it and put the engine to good use. Really comfy car but the rest has a lot to be desired lol


Might be worth a try for a small cost, easy to do as well


I only mention this as it did not come up as a fault on any car specifically as the cam sensor. Just old skool intuition as gearbox is sensed from cam on 270 engines not the crank i believe

                                                     G
 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Thank you!

 

Everything is useful at this moment! The one issue i have is that the guys at the workshop often have their own opinion about what it might be, and that they`re not that keen on doing things they do not believe themselves might be the issue. 

 

But i`ll have the cam sensor in mind!

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

We are one week from 7 months with this problem... The codes are. P2500, P2110 and P2207.

 

As far as i know it is a: 

nox heating part. 

vehicle speed sensor(sender) A4635420717. This i have ordered.

​throttle actuator.

 

g wagon g
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

You will kick yourself if its something simple. I cant believe you are having all these issues

Very sad to hear and i bet you are thinking toyota landcruiser. Thats a sound choice but stay away from land rover if you think you have issues now

Most i know are in dealers more than on the road. Sad but true and i see it daily

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Typically, the accelerator position sensor, cam-shaft sensor and crank-shaft sensors can fail, but I believe you had already changed the accelerator position sensor.

Check also the throttle-position sensor, if it has one, as this is often used by the gearbox control unit to check plausibility and it may cause the gearbox to go in to safe-mode. (I had this problem on a BMW with the same 5-speed ZF 5HP-xxx box). The throttle position sensor helps the gearbox decide when to change gears. In most Cdi engines, the accelerator pedal is electronically linked (accelerator position sensor)  to the throttle, which uses a drive motor and position-sensor to actuate.

It does sound like it may be a simple problem, which has managed to elude your technicians.

I can do this with very basic 'car-soft' diagnostics, so I am sure it can also be done with the official STAR diagnostic system: It should be possible to monitor the gearbox in real-time and see the readings from all the sensors, as well as the shaft speed and turbine (torque converter) speed. Also, the internal valve status and gear-selector position can be checked.  If you can see all these parameters, the CANbus must be working fine. On my BMW, I could see that the throttle position would intermittently read 100%, when the accelerator position was at rest and this would cause the gearbox to enter the safe, limp-home mode. It was a worn potentiometer.

 

 

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

I really appreciate your help, and i will take the tips directly to the guys and ask if they have had a look at them! The heater-element stopped working 8-9 months ago, and i think that the electrics on the car suffered from this, since the voltage might have dropped, and that we tried to get life to the battery at least for a week.. This might have caused the trouble we are in right now. At the same time, we have changed parts that might have been an issue for a longer period. 

But as you say, it might be a fault that fool the mechanics to believe what the diagnostic system tells them it is. But the STAR-system have not done any good for the last months. In my opinion!

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

I tried to get through to them today, but they said it did not have a throttle actuator sensor. And that the pedal sensor has been changed earlier. So not much interest in the other things you wrote. They totally trust their star system, and even if i am the one who pay for parts and labour i cannot get them to change parts that i recommend they do. This is just great.

But i am not that sure that there is not a throttle position sensor, because i found some parts on the net saying it was for 04-06 270cdi.. 

But i found something called WOT(wide open throttle) and PVS(pedal value sensor). And i do not know how many types of pedal sensors there is. I think they have changed two sensors on the pedal. 

One more thing i have seen is that it is not always uncomplicated to change control units because they are coded to the specific car. Am i right?

I think i have to change workshop because this is not going anywhere i guess. I really appreciate your help, and that is really what keeps me sane :) 

g wagon g
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Hi


A lot of other garages would be not so willing to help as people have changed a lot and dont know where to start

I would have a good chat to your mercedes dealer and explain all. You will know if they are willing to help within 3 minutes of talking to their service manager

It is the only way forward i think


I have a star scanner and a vw one but i dont care what anyone says they are not as in depth and informative as main dealer ones


The only thing you need to decide is that if its mechanical and has no sensor it might go un detected

You have spent enough its time for a choice as you should never be having all these issues


More than any car i know to be honest

Decision time i think and pay bill and enjoy your g wagon for what 99% of them are

                                       G

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Yes, i totally agree with you and that is why i am still there. They know what parts that have been checked and what type of problems that have been tried solved. 

At this moment we await a rpm sensor from ebay, since it is a difference between 200 euros and 600 euros. And if it is the wrong part, which is not unlikely, i cannot return the 600 euro part. The 200 euro part is still an item i can sell. That said, i have not sold a part yet :) But it is not my intentionto make this problem as cheap as possible, they insist on buying elswhere.

The rpm sensor came up as possible fault just a couple of weeks ago, and that was after 6 months of trouble. That is why i don`t really think that`s the one. I would rather think that the part is not working anymore because of an other un-diagnosable part not working. Or it is just an fault code as all the other just appearing from month to month.

I just want them to understand that you guys think this problem might be related to sensors that are situated in the engine, or connected to the pedal. That is the hard bit. They usually answer that it cannot be any other part than the ones situated nearby the gear box, transfer case or drivetrain. 

Once again thank you for trying to help out with this problem. My next quest is to make them check out the P2110-code, since that seems to be linked to an throttle position sensor..

g wagon g
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

     Have you tried eurocarparts or kms in uk for a cheap pattern one to try. It might be pattern part but wont break the bank so much


                                         Gaz

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

 

There is some good information on the 722.6 auto box here

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1463460-mercedes-benz-722-6...

 

 

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Thank you, both Arnie and G wagon G. The benz world thread is great, and we have tried some of the stuff mention. Right now we await a rpm sensor, so i just pray it is that one. It says so on the Star-diagnostic! But i have been reading and asking anyway, because i want to be ready for the next problem if it`s not the rpm-sensor. 

BTW- these are the guys from the workshop(for once having a little bit fun :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyyUjLB8TXc

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Love the video - you must post it up on its own. Not everyone who would appreciate it will be following this thread.

g wagon g
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Yes true

Very funny.

If the speed sensor does not fix it i recon you are ready for a box of matches

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Haha. Yes, 

The last discovery now is that the vehicle works fine in the cold weather -15 to -20. But i tried in it for 30 min in 0 to -5, with a stop at the shop, and then the problem came back. So it seems like a sensor that does not work when it goes into working temperatur..

Rpm-sensor arrived today, so hopefully we`ll get that part fixed in a couple of days.

astrisjuls
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Rpm-sensor, that`s it! Guess it has been a couple of faults covering each other, but right now, that was the part who did it! And i am so extremely pleased about driving it again. I even visited a car store when i was driving it the other day. Tried one new Volvo XC90 and an ML, just for the fun of it. None of them can compare to the feel of the quality and heaviness of the G. And i parked it next to a bmw x3 when walking into the store. It looked like a Fiat 500 next to it :)

 

Needless to say, i am happy about the car working again. Covered 1000km in ten days now..

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

I have been following this thread and am glad you finally sorted your problem out. I'm afraid I could add no help as Arnie and G Wagon G obviously know a lot more than I do. I had a similar story a few years ago with our Land Cruiser, yes a Land Cruiser! - never got to the bottom of the electrical problem and eventually had to get rid of it. Never again: I don't care what people say about them. Like you, I like my G and I prefer it over all other 4x4s. Hope your fix is permanent and you can enjoy motoring again. Ph

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Happy days at last

As most people said its usually something simple. All the codes and the can bus etc and its just a simple part

I dont care what code reader people have got

Mine was a couple of thousand but is outdated now

Plug in to a main dealer one and there is more info available. Im sure they would not let people know all info

Its true for bmw and vag and merc , ive seen it done as a friend used to work at mercedes

​Ohh so simple

Enjoy the g wagon and yes they are something to love once owning one

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Yes, in the end it was something simple. They have this theory that when the coolant pump and thermostat was broke this summer, the gearbox oil got so hot that the rpm sensor could not handle the heat, ant stopped working. After this the rpm sensor have been the issue, since it got broken. 

 

But thank you guys for helping me out with both tips and giving me some inspiration to keep on going! It really helped :)

 

Now i will drive the G all over Norway. Hills and forests! 

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

 

astrisjuls wrote:

Yes, in the end it was something simple. They have this theory that when the coolant pump and thermostat was broke this summer, the gearbox oil got so hot that the rpm sensor could not handle the heat, ant stopped working. After this the rpm sensor have been the issue, since it got broken. 

 

But thank you guys for helping me out with both tips and giving me some inspiration to keep on going! It really helped :)

 

Now i will drive the G all over Norway. Hills and forests! 

 

 

Hi, sorry for reurecting this old thread!

I am curious about RPM sensor.... are you refering to the Camshaft sensor? Or gearbox sensor behind the gearbox ?

Having similar issues with my G400 thanks

 

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Hi Gooch

Looking at his post below I think he was refering to the sensor on the gearbox.

 

astrisjuls wrote:

Yes, in the end it was something simple. They have this theory that when the coolant pump and thermostat was broke this summer, the gearbox oil got so hot that the rpm sensor could not handle the heat, ant stopped working. After this the rpm sensor have been the issue, since it got broken.

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

bigblock wrote:

Hi Gooch

Looking at his post below I think he was refering to the sensor on the gearbox.

 

astrisjuls wrote:

Yes, in the end it was something simple. They have this theory that when the coolant pump and thermostat was broke this summer, the gearbox oil got so hot that the rpm sensor could not handle the heat, ant stopped working. After this the rpm sensor have been the issue, since it got broken.

Ahh missed that somehow- how you doing mate?

Happy New Year!

Hope i get this sorted soon quite annoying at the minute

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

It was good to read this older post, and watch the prank video.

Nothing replaces experience.  It's always the same faults on certain cars/engines.  So when someone can share what their problem was, its a good place to start.

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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

gooch wrote:

Ahh missed that somehow- how you doing mate?

Happy New Year!

Hope i get this sorted soon quite annoying at the minute

 

Happy New Year to you as well.

Apart from your current issues how are you enjoying the G400 ?  I always fancied a G with a V8 diesel, some stories about reliability issues but when you speak with actual owners they don't seem to have any issues. A few nice ones for sale just now at sensible money.

gooch
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Hi buddy, 

To be honest! You prob remember i owned one back in 2007 ish and i sold mine just after 30th anniversay photoshoot we did for mercedes enthusiast and another one in 2011, and now this one. X3 G400’s.

In all honesty i have owned this since early last year and this one recently has gone into limp mode, buying a new speed sensor behind gearbox one and have a new camshaft sensor, should be back kn the road by next week.

They are reliable it does have its faults being overloaded with loads of electrical gadgets but if your hands on then its common knowledge sometimes..... none of them let me down in a major way to date.

Its 2001 - 2004, G500, G400, G270, g320 cdi’s that all had similar symptons being the early ginipigs, main fault were the ecu repairs cheap capacitors in them. Once this was sorted they all run nice!

Cheers

Gooch

gooch
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Re: 270cdi can-bus problem on gearbox.

Hi mate, your right certain models had thier own fault designs